MIL @ RA (Cat National) on 7/25, 7/26

[bfloyd]

You mean a Pinto Brougham Limited SE Sport i.

:lol:

PS: with otional luggage rack and genuine simulated wood trim.

 

[Matt Blehm]

The "minimum to qualify" mindset is the result of the boards quantity over quality thinking regarding the runoffs. Today virtually everyone in most classes are "invited" to the runoffs. That is why there are so many back-markers there for the experience and ending up getting in the way of real competitors. They need to go back to the old days when only the top 3 or 4 in each class in each division are invited to the runoffs. that's when it meant something to be "invited" to the runoffs. It would motivate people to participate in more weekends and it would also eliminate some of the people that shouldn't be participating in the "national championships".

Don,
I'm currently 3rd in National/Majors points and 1st in the division for STU, yet I'd be a backmarker at Runoffs if I planned to go. Points don't tell the whole story either..

 

[SPEEDSHAK]

I agree... Before we had a practice session, a qualifying session and a race in a regular national weekend (or 2 qual and a race). So, 3 sessions. Cost was approx. $250-300. Now we have a qualifier, a race on Saturday and a race on Sunday. Still 3 sessions, but entry fee's are almost double. Traditional double weekends included Fridays and really were double the typical race weekend.

On paper, I'm sure this idea was brilliant in terms of revenue per weekend. But what has happened is double the entry, half the participants.

And I can understand rising costs, track rental, insurance etc. But without power in the numbers, Im worried about SCCA Club racings future.

Thanks for chiming in Jesse, I agree with you, its not just RA though, its been every cendiv event this year.

 

[Jason Stine]

On paper, I'm sure this idea was brilliant in terms of revenue per weekend. But what has happened is double the entry, half the participants.

And I can understand rising costs, track rental, insurance etc. But without power in the numbers, Im worried about SCCA Club racings future.

Thanks for chiming in Jesse, I agree with you, its not just RA though, its been every cendiv event this year.

It's really been every division this year aside from the west coast. I think we saw an artificial boom last year due to the 50th runoffs, and the folks in Topeka were high fiving and declaring "success" over those numbers. I don't have a crystal ball, but I would bet money that in 2015, we see a huge drop in west coast participation, and a small boom in the southeast. All in all, with the Majors model, cost has doubled and track time/entries have been cut in half...

Bottom line... Loshak said it perfectly about the club's future. To anyone in Topeka reading this, this business model is NOT sustainable.

 

[Matt Blehm]

Something else to keep in mind is that sanctioning/per entrant fees are going up too.. BUT.. the local region makes more (loses less?) money on 3 races per year at 200 entrants each than they do at 6 races per year with 100 entrants each. That whole fixed + variable costs thing..

 

[disquek]

On the bright side, I'm happy to see the club trying new things.

On the less bright side, we didn't need a revolution. But the board at the time was swept away by their ego and the opportunity to say "I reinvented the SCCA". Evolution is hard. Revolution is quick easy and rarely results in a better situation; just a new boss.

I echo what Ron and Lawrence have said. I'm not about dollars per lap. I did my double dipping in my SM days, and I cant say that I went home from those weekends twice as happy. Double dipping is trending out. Some will continue (or two will share the car), but it wont last much longer as a major motivator.

I run my car as little as I can to achieve the result I 'm aiming for. I'm a competitor, not a trucker. I don't get paid by the mile.

All of this discussion of Majors vs Nationals will be long forgotten if the Commode Agreement ever sees the light of day. We will all be on a beach somewhere arguing over if it was The Majors or the Commode Agreement that finally killed the club. But with both .... fugggitabowdit ....

-Kyle

PS: I'm still stunned by the hubris required to poach the name "Concord Agreement" completely out of context. Do they really think that little of us?

 

[Butch Kummer]

Second post ever on this Prod forum and I'm sure I'll be reminded of two things:

1. If anything negative happens it's always Topeka's fault
2. There's the time-honored SCCA tradition of never letting the facts get in the way of a good rant

Duly warned, here are the numbers from Milwaukee's "Late July" event at Road America. All have been two-day events but the format has changed over the years:

2010 - 6 group Double Regional (Q/R, then Q/R), $230 single/$340 double, 133 cars on Sat/135 on Sunday

2011 - 8 group Single National (Q/Q, then 12-lap R on Sun), $360, 238 entries

2012 - 8 group Single National (Q/Q, then 12-lap R on Sun), $380, 206 entries

2013 - 8 group "1.5" National (two Qualifiers and 12-lap Race, 1/2 the groups get second 12-lap Race, $380 single/$480 for double, 192 double entries, 107 single entries

2014 - 7 group Majors (Q, then 30 min Race, then 13-lap Race), $525, 182 pre-registered at this time

= = = = =

Drivers have repeatedly told us (both in surveys and with their entry fees) they want double race weekends with less diversity in the run groups, and CENDiv members (drivers and volunteers) say they want two-day events. The result is the single Qualifier and sprint/feature format of this year's Cat. Draw your own conclusions regarding participation trends, but it does appear it's been quite awhile since entry fees were "$250-$300".

Majors numbers:

West Coast is certainly up in 2014, but so the SEDiv and Mid-States Conference Majors are also up compared to 2013. NEDiv and the Northern Conference Majors are down compared to like events from a year ago, but overall 2014 car counts are up over 700 entries over the comparable 2013 event (some of which were not Majors). Even if you add in the 457 entries for CoTA in 2013, comp counts for 2014 are still 262 ahead of 2013.

"Topeka" is paying attention but we're watching the entire country rather than a single division.

Going back to lurking again...

 

[disquek]

Drivers have repeatedly told us (both in surveys and with their entry fees) they want double race weekends with less diversity in the run groups.

Hi Butch,
Although I don't doubt the statement above. I understand that it may be carefully worded. I'd be curious to see the number around that philosophy.

I just don't get the same vibe when I ask around. I also question if these same people who want "more track time and less classes" fully understand what this means.

I've seen some of the surveys and the questions were, to be kind, pretty leading. As in they only spell out the positives. "Do you want more track time and fewer classes in your group?". Well sure. But they don't then also say "And do you also want to rebuild your car from the ground up, pay 3 times what you do now, and send half of your friends home"?

-Kyle

 

[Ron Bartell]

Drivers have repeatedly told us (both in surveys and with their entry fees) they want double race weekends with less diversity in the run groups.

Hi Butch,
Although I don't doubt the statement above. I understand that it may be carefully worded. I'd be curious to see the number around that philosophy.

I just don't get the same vibe when I ask around. I also question if these same people who want "more track time and less classes" fully understand what this means.

I've seen some of the surveys and the questions were, to be kind, pretty leading. As in they only spell out the positives. "Do you want more track time and fewer classes in your group?". Well sure. But they don't then also say "And do you also want to rebuild your car from the ground up, pay 3 times what you do now, and send half of your friends home"?

-Kyle

Good points, Kyle. You also have to think about the fact that SM and SRF can have huge fields that could easily account for 1/3 of the entrants at any given event. Certainly those guys would consistently ask for less classes because they know that they will never be bumped, and less classes means more track time for them.

 

[Dayle Frame]

The prod/GTL field is very light with only 12 entries (130+ total).....c'mon folks bulk this up or the field or it may be folded into another run group. If you're thinking about entering, do it now and help MIL (and Tracey Gauper....amazing Ms. G!) out. Conference championships are on the line as there are only two events left (this one and Grattan).

Dayle

So a few days later the entry list has gone from 130 to 181 and climbing.

Dayle

 

[VWRalf]

Majors numbers:

West Coast is certainly up in 2014, but so the SEDiv and Mid-States Conference Majors are also up compared to 2013. NEDiv and the Northern Conference Majors are down compared to like events from a year ago, but overall 2014 car counts are up over 700 entries over the comparable 2013 event (some of which were not Majors). Even if you add in the 457 entries for CoTA in 2013, comp counts for 2014 are still 262 ahead of 2013.

"Topeka" is paying attention but we're watching the entire country rather than a single division.

Going back to lurking again...

If all you are seeing is increases in Majors numbers, then you are not paying attention! You should be paying attention to the cancelled events and the low numbers at regional events that are losing money.

 

[Dayle Frame]

WMR had a regional a couple of weeks ago on the same weekend as BVR. Both were teetering on viability until the very end. Terry, Butch and others at HQ reached out to offer support as both regions struggled with their events. So, believe me, they're on the same page about regionals as well as Majors.

Dayle

 

[Tracey Gauper]

Butch -

For 2010, the Milwaukee regional and national events were flipped due to trying to make the CenDiv schedule work well for both levels of racing. Also, it was the year we introduced the concept of a double national in CenDiv due to driver requests (decreased tow costs). The Cat was a 3-day Double National held May 21-23 at Road America. I believe the entry fee was $360 for a single and $499 for the double.

Tracey Gauper

 

[Frogeye]

Dayle,
That's interesting. Memphis struggled to the point of cancelling and we never heard from Topeka. Last year they didn't even list us as a track in the Division when talking about Majors. Well no matter, we're out of the racing business, selling off all our equipment so that's one less track for them to worry about.

 

[Dayle Frame]

Dayle,
That's interesting. Memphis struggled to the point of cancelling and we never heard from Topeka. Last year they didn't even list us as a track in the Division when talking about Majors. Well no matter, we're out of the racing business, selling off all our equipment so that's one less track for them to worry about.

Rob,
It's a two way street. When our race was in trouble, we reached out to them. Butch and I chatted about a variety of remedies. Rick Myers (region liaison) contacted us separately so he could email blast folks for us. I guess my take away is that HQ, the region, the track and the drivers need to all be pulling on the rope together.

Dayle

 

[Jason Stine]

What happened to Greg?

 

[David Dewhurst]

If I heard the story correctly. The transmission went south before the Sat. race and he rebuilt/installed another? and it went south at the green flag.

As a race group the prod group needs HELP.

 

[racer_tim]

Looks like only 12 cars turned laps.

 

[Bill Meyer]

I was on the track Sat QUAL in my new (to me) GTL. Lost the engine due to an atypical failure. :boohoo:

 

[Greg Gauper]

What happened to Greg?

Picked up a really bad vibration in Qualifying.
At the time I thought the problem might have been transmission related.
Thrashed to install my spare stock tranny and got it installed with about 20 minutes to spare before the sprint race.
Took the pace lap with fingers crossed as the car still did not feel quite right in a brief drive up and down the paddock.
At the drop of the green the clutch let go completely.
A big 'thank you to the Loop guys (Bob & Dick) for helping with the tranny swap.

J. Brakke, Sturm, and Loshak pretty much checked out for the class wins.

Good race between Griesinger & Hart in FP and Hannagan & Trainer in HP.