How many of the front end holes can I fill in?

EPrill":7ne7hr1s said:
This controversy started at the Runoffs. The car that Tech (Jim C correct me if I'm wrong) was the Moser Honda on Tuesday. Here's the only pic I can find of it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbonvouloi ... 8690132965

The screen is outside of the bodywork. From there, it was noted by Tech that technically there was no rule about screens so technically everyone with one was in violation.

Yes, I do have heartburn over this. Is it a done deal? I assumed it was. Maybe it's not?
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Outside the body work yes, BUT inside the outline of the body. :wink: As you stated inside the body or outside the body there was no rule at that time.

If I'm not mistaken Kevin Ruck is on the PAC & is looking for input.

Looked back within this thread & per Kevin Ruck:

"Nope, that's not necessary. We'll be able to just add in a new letter ourselves from "PAC". I'm allerting the rest of the PAC this morning that it needs to be reviewed again.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how this should be worded, you're free to do so. Just keep in mind these things:"
 
Check tracking# 7435. I sent suggested wording to the CRB that is relatively simple and I thinj enforceable.
 
Letter sent. #7451

I proposed:


"Screens to protect the Radiator(s) and/or Oil cooler(s) must be contained within the bodywork. Block off plates and/or tape to restrict air are unrestricted, but must be located a minimum of 2" behind the stock radiator/cooler opening."

Also said to spec a mesh size if necessary.
 
EPrill":vljwr5xo said:
but must be located a minimum of 2" behind the stock radiator/cooler opening
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Probably should mention leading or trailing edge of the stock radiator opening. Pretty wide range otherwise.

I'd suggest Leading - that sort of puts all cars in the same aero boat.
 
I agree with Eric and Bill I think that more than covers it. Sure will miss the extra 10 MPH on the the top end of the Lotus by having the screen behind the grill in stead of in front of it.
Joe
 
Joe Walker":hkue3kqr said:
Sure will miss the extra 10 MPH on the the top end of the Lotus by having the screen behind the grill in stead of in front of it.
Joe
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Thanks Joe, that ^ made my day. :mrgreen:
 
David Dewhurst":4siwxnwa said:
Outside the body work yes, BUT inside the outline of the body. :wink: As you stated inside the body or outside the body there was no rule at that time.
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David-
"No rule"? :think: I would think you would be the first to point out that "if it doesn't say you can, you can't", unless they are from WI. :wink: My car too was not legal with my screen flush to the front of the stock grill location - but I wouldn't argue that there was "no rule, so it's good".

The rules for the air dam allow for you to do a lot within the area up to 4" above centerline of the wheels, in front of the wheel opening and behind the body line as viewed from above, but don't block the grill opening.

As others have stated, I prefer the ability to add tape to the front as air temp changes. My radiator ducting is sealed off. If I have to add tape back there, it will require a redesign. 2" back is not the end of the world for me, but it doesn't seem to work for those that have their oil coolers/radiators closer than that.

The GTL cars seem to like add a screen that extends forward of the body, as viewed from above, then add tape to the top.
 
BLinn":1hhyr76s said:
David-
"No rule"? :think: I would think you would be the first to point out that "if it doesn't say you can, you can't", unless they are from WI. :wink:
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Brian, previous to the 2011 Runoffs there was no rule. At the Runoffs there was a :wink: :wink: & now there doing a rule.

Hey, I even bring the rules up to the WI Miata F prod driver I crew with. :mrgreen:
 
Protech Racing":berszj2s said:
The "grill" and "grill opening" have two different definitions
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Reading the SCCA glossary I would understand the word "grill" to be a razzal dazzal piece that attaches to some body work.

Reading the SCCA glossary I would understand the words "grill opening" (open area) to be the remaining open area through which air passes with the grill in place.

Protech Racing":berszj2s said:
The rule says that you can block the grill opening, but not behind the stock grill.
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Within the SCCA rules which rule specifically has these ^ words?

I do learn each & every time I discuss rules. :mrgreen:
 
BLinn":r1h43utx said:
David Dewhurst":r1h43utx said:
Outside the body work yes, BUT inside the outline of the body. :wink: As you stated inside the body or outside the body there was no rule at that time.
Click to expand...
David-
"No rule"? :think: I would think you would be the first to point out that "if it doesn't say you can, you can't", unless they are from WI. :wink: My car too was not legal with my screen flush to the front of the stock grill location - but I wouldn't argue that there was "no rule, so it's good".

The rules for the air dam allow for you to do a lot within the area up to 4" above centerline of the wheels, in front of the wheel opening and behind the body line as viewed from above, but don't block the grill opening.

As others have stated, I prefer the ability to add tape to the front as air temp changes. My radiator ducting is sealed off. If I have to add tape back there, it will require a redesign. 2" back is not the end of the world for me, but it doesn't seem to work for those that have their oil coolers/radiators closer than that.

The GTL cars seem to like add a screen that extends forward of the body, as viewed from above, then add tape to the top.
Click to expand...


It is true that GTL cars commonly add the screens, similar to what is pictured. I hate to say it but there is no mentionin the GT 2-L regulations of screen being allowed. The following is excerpted from the GT 2-L Preparation rules.

F.4. Authorized Modifications
The following modifications are authorized on all GT‑2, 3, and Lite cars.
Modifications shall not be made unless specifically authorized herein. No
permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited
function.

I see no mention of allowable screen being permitted to cover radiator openings. Screen is specifically permitted to cover pop-up headlight openings.

9.1.2.12 provides for the production panel behind the front air dam to have corresponding holes for the purpose of permitting brake cooling air and radiator ducting to pass through. How many tube-frame cars still even have a facsimile of the front valence inside of the air dam? Not many I would bet.

I guess that my point is that the rules, while trying to sweep everything in that you are permitted to do are obviously in need of some additional thought. It is common practice for a tube-frame car to have the air dam attached to the bottom of the front bumper (via an intermediate panel of course, if it is more than 4") :wink: but I would bet that there are none that retain or have a facsimile of the front valence under there. It is also common practice in GTL cars (and GT2 and 3) to have the screen very similar to the photo of the front of the Honda.

It is interesting to note that even in the GT1 rules it does not provide for screen to cover the radiator opening and there is a difference there in that the air dam or intermediate mounting device is permitted to close off the "stock" grille opening, whereas in GT 2-L it expressly states that you cannot cover the "stock" grille opening with the air dam.

My point, if I have one, is that the CRB can't pick and choose which classes have to follow the rules and which don't have to. If they are going to undo years of common practice in Prod, they need to be much more specific in GT. I bet that it will create quite a bit of drama when they tell all of the GT guys that they have to remove the screen from the radiator opening as it is not specifically authorized per F.4. Authorized Modifications.

Either that or they can re-think the hard-line position that they have taken toward the Production Community that has by and large run screen similar to GT for at least 15 years.
 
They didn't take a "hard line". They just responded to a question that didn't need to be ask in the first place, when it was. Then because it was ask, and extensively discusssed online, without time to publish more than a preliminary response, some tech guy at the runoffs decided he could use this to harass drivers rather than having to check something that might actually matter.

It seemed pretty simple to me. You can't cover the grille, the airdam start is defined in relation to the spindle, and you can attach a screen anywhere inside a legal cooling duct/shroud because the duct/shroud is free. Unless there is some way to gain an advantage from some allowance that is part of the new wording I am having difficulty understanding what has materially changed?? Am I missing something (often the case)? Or are you guys overthinking this?
 
I've been reading through all of your responses, and many of you bring up excellent points. Here's where I'm at, solely in my opinion, and do not in any way whatsoever express the viewpoints of anyone else on the PAC or the PAC in it's entirety. Strictly just my thoughts.

Replace the two (new) existing points:
9.1.5.E.6.h - Radiator Screens
9.1.5.E.6.h.1 - Screens, block-off plates or tape that serve only to protect or restrict air flow to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s) are unrestricted, but must be located a minimum of 2” behind the stock radiator/cooler opening.

With these two newly worded, consecutive points:
9.1.5.E.6.h - For their protection, screens of one-fourth (1/4) inch minimum mesh may be mounted in front of the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s). The screen must be completely contained within the bodywork, and their attachments/mounts can serve no other purpose than to attach the screen.

9.1.5.E.6.i - Block-off plates and/or tape that serve to restrict air flow to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s) are unrestricted, but must be flush mounted directly to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s).


I don't think these wordings/rules would create any new drastic inconveniences for a lot of our competitors (like the current wording does), yet they would still provide adequete protection for our coolers from debris, include a way to regulate the temp of our coolers, and would greatly minimize any possible "unintended aerodynamic improvement grey areas". Yes, I know I eliminated the possibility of taping ones grill area for temp control, but I'm sorry, you absolutely cannot argue that in doing so you're closing the size of your stock grill opening (which is expressly illegal within the existing rules of Prod - see 9.1.5.E.9.a.9 below) and improving the aerodynamics of your car in an unintended way (again, within the existing rules of Prod). It's my opinion that if you combined those two new rules with all of these already existing rules, then things would be spelled out pretty well on what you can legally do to the front of a Prod car.

9.1.5.E.6.d.2 - Sealing the area between the radiator, its shroud, any fan(s), and the stock grille opening is permitted. No alternate radiator shroud can extend behind the radiator further than the rear edge of the rearmost mounted fan. If no cooling fan is fitted, the alternate shroud must end at the rear most edge of the radiator.

9.1.5.E.7.i.2 - The front brake duct inlet(s) must not extend to the side beyond the centerlines of the front wheels, or forward of the forward most part of the front of the body or front air dam.

9.1.5.E.9.a.9 - Air Dams: An air dam can be fitted to the front of the car. It must not protrude beyond the overall outline of the car as viewed from above, or extend aft of the forward most part of the front fender opening (cutout), and must not be mounted more than four inches above the horizontal centerline of the front wheel hubs. An intermediate mounting device can be used on cars whose front bodywork is above the four inch maximum. If the air dam covers any portion of the stock grille, an opening must be created in the air dam. The width of the opening must be equal to or greater than the widest horizontal measurement of the portion of the grille that would otherwise be covered. The height of the opening must be equal to or greater than the distance measured perpendicularly to the ground, between the lowest and highest point of the portion of the grille that would otherwise be covered. The opening in the air dam must be symmetrically aligned in both planes to the grille. Openings in the air dam are permitted for the purpose of ducting air to the brakes, radiator, and/or oil coolers. Openings can be cut in the front valance to allow the passage of up to a three inch duct or a rectangular or square duct with a maximum area of seven square inches leading to each front brake. These openings can serve no other purpose. When bumpers are used or when they are part of the bodywork, the air dam and bumper/replica bumper must appear to be two (2) separate components. The air dam can have no support or reinforcement extending aft of the forward most part of the front fender
opening (cutout).

9.1.5.E.9.a.10 - Glass and/or plastic headlight, front parking and signal light lenses and bulbs can be removed. All other lighting components can be removed. If the headlights are removed, openings must be covered with wire mesh screens or solid panels. These covers must be of the same or flatter contour as the stock headlight lenses.

9.1.5.E.9.a.10.B - The openings created by the removal of front lighting components/assemblies, can be used to duct air to the engine, radiator, oil cooler(s), and front brakes. Holes for the ducting no larger than 7.25” in diameter can be cut in interior panels provided the holes are completely filled by the ducts.

9.1.5.E.9.a.10.C - Side marker light assemblies can be removed and the openings covered with a solid panel.


Again, this is solely for the purpose of public discussion. It doesn't reflect anything other than my own personal feelings on the subject, at this exact moment.
 
9.1.5.E.6.i - Block-off plates and/or tape that serve to restrict air flow to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s) are unrestricted, but must be flush mounted directly to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s).

I still have a problem with not being allowed to apply tape that can be removed externally from the car. By requiring it to be mounted directly to the radiators/coolers, many of us will have to redesign access to that area. And it will be more time consuming. Getting the panels back in place is never that simple, getting floppy panels and dzus pins to align when in a hurry will create more frustration in the pits, and loss of track time.

The thought that there is an areo advantage from a small amount of tape in the front of the grill seems a little out of line, considering the max velocity of the production category. Granted Road America is a high speed track, but I challenge anyone to document an actual lap time difference by removing a 6" tall strip of tape placed the width of the grill opening. I would argue it further disrupts the exterior air flow in the front of the car, and slows you down. The cold weather alone will minimize your lap times, because of tire temps. That will probably have a larger affect to your lap times than the tape. Cold air will improve horsepower, the tape didn't increase the velocity... And, when I place tape over the front grill, I also block off air flow volume to the cold air box!

Tape on a NASCAR car at 200 mph is an effective device. They also have wind tunnel knowledge of the placement and advantages/disadvantages. It may be worth .005 to .015 seconds at Daytona, with a qualifying average speed well above 200 mph.

We are not overthinking this in this long dialog. But, we are possibly guilty over not thinking enough. Really, does blocking air flow by a 6" high piece of tape speed allow that much more terminal velocity? Does anyone have some data acquisition notes that can be used here?? We sound like Congress here, arguing about taxing the rich. What are the real consequences? Does anyone have some facts to support their philosophy?
 
I like "no covering of the stock grille opening" plain and simple. And this only for appearance. Afterall production cars are prepared and developed, not spec, right? If competitors want to play with screens and such anywhere inside an unrestricted shroud, why not let them? Since when do we worry about somebody getting a competitive advantage by preparing and developing their prod car?
 
The rule does not say grill opening. It says grill.
Like I said. the only rule should be IMHo;

, "Any tape or block off plates,can't obscure the stock grill, all else is free, tape, screen etc"
Lose 8 lines of rules, leave the air dam section as it is.
IMHo. I came to Prod because of the IT rules.. go figure.
 
Here's what I sent to the CRB: Proposed wording: "A 1/4" minimum wire mesh screen may be placed in front of the radiator or attached to the rea of the stock grille. In cases where the is no grille the screen must be placed within 1 " of the front of the radiator. The attachments can serve no other pupose than to attach the screen and must not restrict the stock opening."
 
That would disallow the flush front screen on the Bugeyes and Miata? I am pretty sure that the screen should be allowed to be rivited to the front of the bodywork.IMHO. MM
 
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