How many of the front end holes can I fill in?

Protech Racing

Well-known member
The rules talk about covering the grill. No mention of covering the grill openings.
(Edit.)

I under stand that I cant fill in the grille area. How about behind my front bumper?
My VW has " grill openings" the whole width of the car, behind the bumper area.
Maybe the car would go faster with a bumper.
Thanks, MM
 
define "grill opening". Is it any air that goes to the radiator?
per gcr definition:

Grille Opening – The opening in the front of a car, through which cooling
air is ducted to the radiator(s), and in some cases, to other accessories,
or to the engine.

Bryan Floyd
 
I think that this new section applies:

h. Radiator Screens
1. Screens, block-off plates or tape that serve only to protect
or restrict air flow to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s) are
unrestricted, but must be located a minimum of 2” behind
the stock radiator/cooler opening.

BUT - on rereading this, is there an error? Should "minimum" read "maximum"....??????

Al Seim
HP VW Scirocco 1.6
 
I agree that the wording does not make sense....
My radiator is mounted in the stock OEM location and is less than 1" away from my grill.
My oil cooler is approximately 1/4" away from my grill.
Based on the above wording, I can't add either screen or block-off plates.

I was under the impression that the wording was going to be modified to match the SS/IT rules which permitted screens to be attached "behind the grill" with no regard to distance....it just had to be "behind the grill"
Am I missing something?
 
The duct itself is still free. If it's inbetween a legal opening and the radiator you can do whatever you want Just make sure it's the duct. The way I interpret it anyway
 
The rule states that the air dam can not cover the grill.

The "grill" is defined as the ornamental piece in front of the radiator.

So, I can cover everything except the small area covered by the plastic grill?.
That is what the rule says to me. Is that the intent?
I need about 20% of the total grill openings,other than the grille itself.
MM
 
I read the minimum of 2" to mean it must be 2" or more behind the grill. If it is a maximum of 2" it could be on the back of thje grill. I assumed they were trying to keep it off the back so it didn't block the grilll opening. Comments?
Oh, I like Curtis' "duct" idea! If it completely contains the air it is a duct, even if it was down at the front. Probalby could even be made to "Quack" in the air flow if made with a reed like a call. Then they couldn't argue about it.
 
I'm thinking it should have read maximum not minimum.

As this is worded most typical grille screens will be illegal (again?).

Al Seim
HP VW Scirocco 1.6
 
Al Seim":3kw1topx said:
Radiator Screens
1. Screens, block-off plates or tape that serve only to protect
or restrict air flow to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s) are
unrestricted, but must be located a minimum of 2” behind
the stock radiator/cooler opening.

BUT - on rereading this, is there an error? Should "minimum" read "maximum"....??????
No, it shouldn't read "maximum". Somewhere along the line it got hacked up, and isn't totally right. The PAC fiddled and fiddled with this rule and it's wording for a while, so my brain is trying to remember it all at the moment, but I don't think that's exactly right. The main issue was regarding this...
Greg Gauper":3kw1topx said:
I was under the impression that the wording was going to be modified to match the SS/IT rules which permitted screens to be attached "behind the grill" with no regard to distance....it just had to be "behind the grill"
....what about cars that have no grill? The Miata is the prime example, where there is simply just a huge, wide mouth. Should these cars just be allowed to mount a screen/block off plate right up flush-mounted to the backside of that opening? If so, than they've effectively smoothed off that entire opening and vastly improved the aero of their cars. Whereas cars like Greg's (and mine), there is an interlaced plastic grill that's part of the bumper cover, right there in front of the radiator. Flush mounting to the back of that won't really do anything to cleaning up the front end aero. Then there's also cars like the RX-7's, that had a grill that was its own entirely seperate piece that bolted inside the mouth of its front valence, and every Prod RX-7 I've ever seen doesn't run. Point being, there's a whole lot of "grill openings" out there, and we're trying to make it all fit without favoring one kind of a design over another for whatever reason.

To my best recollection, the "must be a minimum of 2" behind the opening" wording was added for cars like the Miata, who could otherwise be able to flush mount their screen. What I remember was a wording more like this:
Radiator Screens
1. Screens, block-off plates or tape that serve only to protect or restrict air flow to the radiator(s) and/or oil cooler(s) are unrestricted, but must be located entirely behind the stock grill. On vehicles where no stock grill was ever present, the screens, block-off plates, or tape must be a minimum of 2” behind the stock radiator/cooler opening.

That wording was designed to allow cars like mine or Greg's to just simply mount directly behind their stock grills, but to also prevent cars without any grill to flush-mount their screens/block-off plates to the front of their car, and effectively totally seal off the front of their cars.

Like I said, this got fiddled with a lot, because there are a lot of different types of front ends out there that we're trying to cover all in one relatively simple and not super-wordy rule. I believe it was not the PAC's intent to make that "minimum of 2"" thing to apply to every car. Guess we'll have to look at it again.

On a personal note, I liked the simple IT style rule of "minimum 1/4" mesh screens can be mounted inside/behind the stock grill/radiator opening to protect from rocks and crap". Bam. Done. No wiggle room. No grey area of possibly improving ones frontend aero with "screens". Do your air blocking back at the radiator, where it'll have very little effect on your aero.
 
The Miata in fact does have a grill which is a black plastic piece that surrounds/3 or 4 verticle pieces that big front opening. :wink:

Totally agree they could have followed the IT/Spec Miata rule.
 
What Kevin says makes sense. As published though it is not right, on a typical "eggcrate" grille like the Scirocco it's a no brainer to do what's on my car and just fasten screen across the back of the grille, with the rule as is you'd have to suspend the mesh in space 2" back, unless like Greg your cooler is in the way, then you apparently cannot run it at all which is plainly wrong. I'm not sure on my car if the cooler is within the 2" zone or not.

Rule needs fixing IMO.

Al Seim
HP Scirocco 1.6
 
Kevin -

Does someone need to write a letter re this or will it get reviewed w/o?

I'd be happy to write a letter suggesting your recalled wording which seems reasonable....

Al
 
Nope, that's not necessary. We'll be able to just add in a new letter ourselves from "PAC". I'm allerting the rest of the PAC this morning that it needs to be reviewed again.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how this should be worded, you're free to do so. Just keep in mind these things:
- There are many kinds of grills in Prod, or even lack their of.
- The desire is there to allow these grills, block-off plates, and/or tape to be out by that grill/radiator-opening, and not allowed only on the radiator surface. It's what the general practice has been by the majority of competitors (and why the issue arose at the Runoffs last year), and has been the general feelings of a majority of the PAC to continue with allowing these things out there, ahead of the radiator itself.
- We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.
 
kruck":2gf4bn8y said:
That wording was designed to allow cars like mine or Greg's to just simply mount directly behind their stock grills, but to also prevent cars without any grill to flush-mount their screens/block-off plates to the front of their car, and effectively totally seal off the front of their cars.
kruck":2gf4bn8y said:
We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.
If "you and Greg" can mount directly behind the grill, you and Greg will have improved aerodynamics. Maybe not as much as a flat, flush-mounted piece on a car without a grill, but it would improve air flow - period. Even a piece of tape on the radiator improves aerodynamics by reducing airflow into the engine compartment.
kruck":2gf4bn8y said:
On a personal note, I liked the simple IT style rule of "minimum 1/4" mesh screens can be mounted inside/behind the stock grill/radiator opening to protect from rocks and crap". Bam. Done. No wiggle room. No grey area of possibly improving ones frontend aero with "screens". Do your air blocking back at the radiator, where it'll have very little effect on your aero.
Agreed, but then again, there is no allowance for tape/blocking plate.
 
BLinn":7wxsca54 said:
kruck":7wxsca54 said:
On a personal note, I liked the simple IT style rule of "minimum 1/4" mesh screens can be mounted inside/behind the stock grill/radiator opening to protect from rocks and crap". Bam. Done. No wiggle room. No grey area of possibly improving ones frontend aero with "screens". Do your air blocking back at the radiator, where it'll have very little effect on your aero.
Agreed, but then again, there is no allowance for tape/blocking plate.
Yup, absolutely true. It would then force any of that "tape/blocking plate to restrict/prevent air flow" work to be done solely back on the radiator/cooler, where it will have it's minimum effect on aero.

BLinn":7wxsca54 said:
kruck":7wxsca54 said:
That wording was designed to allow cars like mine or Greg's to just simply mount directly behind their stock grills, but to also prevent cars without any grill to flush-mount their screens/block-off plates to the front of their car, and effectively totally seal off the front of their cars.
kruck":7wxsca54 said:
We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.
If "you and Greg" can mount directly behind the grill, you and Greg will have improved aerodynamics. Maybe not as much as a flat, flush-mounted piece on a car without a grill, but it would improve air flow - period. Even a piece of tape on the radiator improves aerodynamics by reducing airflow into the engine compartment.
Yup, also true. As long as any of this "mounting of block-off plates for restriction of air-flow" is allowed anywhere out by the grill/cooler opening, aero improvements can possibly be made, no matter what style/design the front of your car is. All I want to do, is try to not totally open the flood gates to wildly slicked-out front ends, with little to no resemblance to OEM appearance. This is still Production racing afterall, so I'd like to keep a little "production" in it.


Again, if anyone has any suggestions on how you would word it, I wouldn't mind seeing it.
 
kruck":27tihoxp said:
The Miata is the prime example, where there is simply just a huge, wide mouth. Should these cars just be allowed to mount a screen/block off plate right up flush-mounted to the backside of that opening? If so, than they've effectively smoothed off that entire opening and vastly improved the aero of their cars.

Miata=Man Drama

Ban them all. :lol:
 
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