Daytona Runoffs- a few technical and driver things to check

J

Joel McGinley

Well-known member
I raced Daytona in an HP Sprite from 1990 to 2005 - The track has features that may not be encountered anywhere else - unless you have run "BIG" road/ovals. I offer some things to consider, in no special order:
1) At Daytona you will run with wide-open throttle for two long sections each lap. If your fuel delivery is marginal, you could face leaning/misfire/etc. It would be a good idea to check throttle opening and fuel delivery- such as a new fuel filter or if you have degraded foam in the fuel cell... The amount of each lap at full throttle will mean that you will burn more fuel than any other track. If your tank size is small you may want to fully top the tank before a race and then tow the car to the grid. Hopefully you can check your MPG in practice/qualifying to find out. I ran a 948 Bugeye with about 100 HP and used about 3.5 gallons for a 45-mile National race, which implied that I was at full power for about 80 % of the lap!
2) At the speeds prod cars run ( like 100- 130 mph on the banking - I calculated 124 mph once) - even then the banking does all the work - the banked turns are like straights, with very little steering or cornering input. If you are low on fuel the pick-up should be on the left side since the front straight is only slightly banked and the last of your fuel will be on the left as you run out of Turn 4 to the finish.
3)The track is essentially a counter-clockwise oval, with a few infield turns added, so top speed is king - even more than Road America- at least there are no hills to climb- Florida is flat. ANYTHING you can do to reduce drag and increase top speed will pay off...
4) Brake and tire temperatures will not be a problem - tires actually cool on the banking and you are driving only six turns in 3.7 miles... Engine cooling could be a factor - it can still be 90 degrees F in September and again- long full-throttle runs...
5)Visibility on the banking- for those who have never run on a large banking: your visibility forward and especially rearward is limited. The effect is like being in the bottom of a big dip, with the road curving UP in both directions. You may want to adjust one mirror up a little... otherwise set your line and don't change. Why anyone would drive higher on the bank than the bottom lane, except to pass, is beyond me. However it is fun to just once - like on a cool-off lap - go to the top of the banking and enjoy the view. Don't scrub tires on the banking either - collisions and rollovers have happened! Usually all this is discussed in the Driver's Meeting.
6) Driving on the apron: the apron is the flat area of track below the banking- and below the line. I have seen slower cars drive down there and thus shorten the course. I do not recommend it- the apron can be dusty, your tires do have to make cornering force and the transitions to/from the banking are severe. I have suggested to some of the stewards that it be forbidden except for a car in distress and at less than racing speed. If this topic is NOT discussed at the driver's meeting - somebody ask!
7) Daytona track guards (the hired guards - not the SCCA volunteers) - Personal opinion: the track hires "angry old men" who enjoy their power. In general, I always felt like a kindergardener or a criminal suspect. Don't lose your cool if they are difficult...
8) Time off? Of course the beaches are only a few miles east but you are also only about 40 miles from the Kennedy Space Center. The Visitor's Center is great (not cheap) and can occupy a whole day. Go see Atlantis on display. A great souveneir is the "astronaut" oven gloves. Or if you enjoy warbirds, also to the south is Valiant air Command museum, with over 40 airplanes of which about 10 fly. I volunteer there as a ground vehicle mechanic, tending to the tow tugs, forklifts, crane, etc. Admission $20 but less for active/former military.
Hope these tips help a little. I'll be wandering around Thursday - Sunday looking to say hello! Joel
 
Much of what Joel says is spot on. However, something significant has changed in the past year, the attitude of the gate folks employed by the Speedway. I arrived on this past Thursday. The gate guard at gate 40 where you enter off Williamson Rd did not come out of the building like he used to do. He just waived me on by. At the T, you turn left and go to registration. They were not open yet so I went on to the tunnel entrance where the guard stops everyone. I told him I was there to set up tech. He said fine, good to see you again and waived me on into the track.

I went in and parked my motorhome in the owner and driver parking area. Nice level pads with 50 AMP hook ups. Shower building, restrooms and exercise building is close by.

Much of this attitude change is because we broke the mold at the SIC last year and paid a small fee to keep the guards all night and allow everyone to stay inside. Before that, everyone had to vacate the inside of the Speedway by 7 PM.

You may find locked gates early on, but by the time we get racing, most should be open.

One key thing, this IS a NASCAR track and occasionally, you maybe told no. Respect that and your week will go well. Disrespect it and it may go to ____.

And couple of other items, look closely at you front tire wear. Make sure you are not running over onto the side walls. Tires do blow at Daytona and the result usually is not pretty. And if your car should have a fire, get to the bottom and get out. You may be a long way from a safety truck. Don't even think about trying to find one and save the car. A driver died there trying to do that.
 
Make sure your fuel pickup is well placed, securely, on the bottom and in the extreme corner. Did not have the problem at Daytona, but it surfaced at Charlotte (Lowes). Exiting the Charlotte infield onto the banking I was running out of fuel, with more than 1/2 a tank of fuel! Had to relocate the pickup more carefully. Heavy banking and G forces were moving the fuel away from the pickup.

Running the top of the banks could be more than 100 yards added to your lap distance. Can you afford to run a longer track distance?

These may be the longest, sustained, wide open runs you will ever get to run. Unless you get to run Bonneville. Make sure you are not too close to running lean. Not only need good jetting, but consistent fuel delivery and fuel pressure. If you run lean at the mid point, or later, on these straights, you may not notice you are now destroying some pistons. I can show you some that have what looks like someone pushed in the top dome with their thumb. Keep track of your EGT, timing and jetting.

Play nice with the track staff. ( I'm not talking about the SCCA staff and workers here.) They don't tolerate attitudes, denial or not paying attention to them. Just say "yes sir" and "thank you". I may be overstating my case, just pay attention to my intent... They are usually very helpful,. Always approach with a calm demeanor, and establish some nice conversational tones first.

When I started running Daytona in the 70's with a B/S Datsun 510, I was impressed. It was BIG, and I finally had a chance to drive it, with my 1800 cc motor. Kept watching my mirrors, more than looking forward. We were running with A/P 427 Corvettes and Z-28 Cameros and Boss Mustangs. I kept looking in the mirror, all the way down the back straight (no bus stop then) and into NASCAR T3 & T4.

Convinced there no one could possibly be behind me as I exited T4, I intently motored on.
This was "Going Fast" for me, finally.


Then my car EXPLODED.!!!..... A 427 Corvette passed between me and the wall, easily 60 mph faster.The air concussion and their exhaust concussion hit me like a huge bucket of ice cold water. Completely happy I had been doing everything possible, I was now startled out of my wits, and almost disoriented. The most startling instantaneous moment I ever had racing.... I had left him with 2 lanes between me and the wall. He took one of them, and I was left nearly spinning in circles by his wake.
 
:) Time Off. Just to add a note. Daytona Beach is one of the few beaches where you can drive your street vehicle on the beach, it's worth the experience.
 
The entire crew @ Daytona has been much nicer than in the past.

FWIW the pace lap is real slow on the T3,T 4 banking and you may have oil starvation issues.
 
One thing that I've been told by a builder that does Bonneville and the fast oval stuff (think 5/8 mile dirt track - WOT the whole lap) is valve spring life and pretty much anything concerning the valvetrain.

Most don't have the liberty of having their valvetrain developed on a Spintron (ala NASCAR). High duration at high rpms will cause the springs to weaken faster and they check their spring pressures on a regular basis - fortunately, most the domestic V8 guys can check them without having to remove the valves. I also was told to pay attention to the valve retainers and look for any signs of galling, especially on the titanium set-ups as well.

I think most will be surprised by how many engines go kaboom in the sport bike powered classes. Those engines aren't designed to push that kind of load (aka - not a motorcycle) through the air for that long.
 
The Paddock crew has developed a great relationship with the track Security folks. They have gone out of their way to give us the freedom we need to put on events. At last week's event we had a P2 catch on fire during Saturday qualifying and pretty much burn out the engine compartment and associated body work. The car was in the yellow garages... the crew said they had enough parts to fix the car in time for the first race Sunday morning. Charlie Leonard, Chief Paddock Marshal, asked the track security folks if they could stay in the garage all night to fix the car and got an immediate "yes" as they normally lock the garage area up at night. Garages will be open all night for the Runoffs but are normally locked down to secure the cars. They entrusted the Paddock crew to monitor the area and the car crew to lock the gate if they weren't going to be there all night. They finished and started the car at 9:45 am and made both races. That folks, is building trust between CFR and Daytona management! I wound up being the "watchdog" and was impressed with the track's attitude and especially the P2's crew. Was there when they started the engine and it was goosebumps!

If you have any problems of any sort, short of doing something dumb, call the Paddock Marshal. If you or your crew have created anything to get the track security involved and we don't know about it, we'll wave at you on your way out. We worked hard on this relationship with the track so YOU can have the best experience possible. Take advantage of it, have a good time, and have a good race!

Bob Hess
Assistant Chief Paddock Marshal
2015 SCCA Runoffs

(sounds sort of official, doesn't it?)
 
Check front wheel bearings before going and at least once after a session or two the left front especially since on an oval the pressure with the car wanting to put G forces to the right that makes the left front wheel assembly want to pull off to the left while the tire grips well.
 
APRON:

From Turn 6 infield, I did a few laps using only the apron in NASCAR #1 / #2 at last Friday's test day. I did not have data in that car, so I cannot overlay.

I am curious why someone would want to exclude that as a part of the racing surface? I found the apron had good grip.

Educate me please.

Thanks, Peter
 
We ran the "Texas Race of Champions" at Texas World Speedway for several years. It was a blending of SCCA road racers with the best drivers from the Texas short tracks. ( they definitely had some strange looking cars, and stranger driving lines. ) I ran a GT1 with the V8'powered cars from the short tracks.

Every year, 4 or 5 of them seldom finished their second track sessions. Usually didn't finish their first session. They could be depended on to run lean and leave engine parts on the track, 3/4 of the way down the front straight. That one straight was 3 or 4 times longer than their entire home track oval!
Many of them didn't have a rear gear that enabled them to properly run to the top end available for such a long straight.

I know most of you have had more access to long straights with proper tuning and gearing. Check the length of the longest straight you have run, compare it to the length of Daytona.

Sustained RPMMMMM's. It can be a lot of fun, check off one more from your "bucket list".

Plan ahead... :D
 
Peter, junk, loose parts and broken pieces roll down hill. All day long....
They stop rolling and reside on the apron.
Yes, it is a shorter distance per lap.
You may have a flat tire, or punctured oil pan, before the race is over.
:oops:

The transition, up the bank or off the bank, to the apron is very abrupt. Be careful.
Yes, it is a lot better since resurfacing.
 
JohnMcNaughton":1l0db41h said:
Peter,….
….
The transition, up the bank or off the bank, to the apron is very abrupt. Be careful.
Yes, it is a lot better since resurfacing.
Click to expand...


OH HELL YES!. Three times just to see I came off of NASCAR 2 in 4th gear onto the apron. I was told "if you get sucked down to the apron, go there!"

Although abrupt, the apron is 3 lanes wide and you can shorten the course. But, as John says, it is ABRUPT.

Peter
 
peterzekert":1stskgtb said:
OH HELL YES!. Three times just to see I came off of NASCAR 2 in 4th gear onto the apron. I was told "if you get sucked down to the apron, go there!"

Although abrupt, the apron is 3 lanes wide and you can shorten the course. But, as John says, it is ABRUPT.

Peter
Click to expand...

My first time around Daytona in a FV that was the preferred way around...ALL the way around as there was no chicane then (1982).

About the transition from the track to the apron around the banking. If you want to run below it, do so, if you choose to run above it (I do) do it and stay there. What you definitely do not want to do is run with two tires above and two below the double yellow lines (frowned upon anyway). I had that happen to me inadvertently several years ago with a competitor directly beside me. Had me very concerned because when you make that transition from apron to banking it is abrupt and sudden. You will move a lot more than you think you should.
 
How steep is the transition from the apron to the banking? The banking is about 30 degrees or so, the apron is flat. My old Chevy van had very little front overhang. I drove the van perpendicular to the track, from the apron, between NASCAR T3 and T4. The front bumper hit the banking, before the front tires were at the banking. The bumper scraped and would not allow me to go up.

They have since added a little bit of a radius to the transition, so it is not as sudden. But, until you make the transition, any of your current perceptions are mostly fantasy. The chassis ride height of the big stocker cars is much much higher than the Prod and GT cars run. They struggle at the transition!

Peter, your comment about using the lower line exiting the infield is a valid observation. That is a big "hill climb" for momentum cars. I am still reluctant to consider driving on the apron. After a week of Runoffs activity, don't know if that area will have been well maintained, swept and cleared. But, your thinking to reduce the effort to climb the steep grade to T2 is very valid. It is not necessary to climb to the top lanes. But using data gathered from some different, with a lower rate of climb, lines would be worthwhile. I think you would scrub off less infield exit speed with a lower line, yielding a better top end before the bus stop. Possibly also shortening your lap distance covered. And how would the choices affect your segment times from the infield exit to the bus stop? It would affect your line at the exit gate from the infield to NASCAR T2.

Don't know what the position of the stewards will be at the Runoffs for using the apron as the racing line. Is it considered "out of bounds" and deviating from the course? Thinking of some of the F1 penalties this year for deviating from the course. Jay is correct, it was once common practice for small formula and Prod cars to run the apron. But, H/P cars have much more power these days.
I remember watching a Lotus 23 going around the banking. His setup, or driving style, had the rear of the car visibly lower than the front of the car on the T3 - T4 banking. Most peculiar looking, it was aligned straight on level ground track surfaces, but tail hanging down below the front by several inches, possibly 5" - 6". Looked like he was about to oversteer down to the apron, spinning the rear downwards off the track.

Other than some races at Daytona, in B/ Sedan 510, all of my time there has been in B/P, GT1 or IMSA Camero. Never considered the lower line with those cars.
 
John.. Last weekend the track folks cleaned the track during the lunch break and as soon as the day's races ended.

Bob
 
Local legend has it that many of the lower HP cars use the apron from exit of 6 to the back straight. Once you get straightened out on the back straight the transition from the track to the apron is very minimal. Exiting the bus stop I think staying in the bottom lane of the banking would yield the best results as the exit of the bus stop should be in excess of 90 mph and it is a ways to the turn.
 
Checked with Runoffs Chief Steward on using the apron. He says as it stands now the apron can be used as a race surface except before the Start line. Subject to change if it gets to be a problem I assume and will be a good question at the driver's meeting.

Bob
 
Bob Hess":1cv4hua6 said:
...He says as it stands now the apron can be used as a race surface except before the Start line. Subject to change if it gets to be a problem I assume and will be a good question at the driver's meeting.

Bob
Click to expand...

:twisted: Devils advocate... how far before the start line? Realistically 1 foot in front of the line is still behind it, a whole LAP behind it but still behind, or before it. :mrgreen:

And I agree with you Bob, it needs to be addressed and a definitive decision presented on it at a drivers meeting. If not sooner.
 
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