American Racer Tires

kruck":1gmwex7y said:
I'd like to thank all of you for keeping this issue CRB-centric, and not blaming this on the PAC.... :wink:

I have looked at this stuff a lot, and my biggest concern with "the box rule" is that you have to make the box big enough to fit the existing cantilevered tires, on the biggest wheel currently allowed in the class. That would mean this:
EP - 25.5" x 25.5" x 11.5"
FP - 23" x 23" x 10.5"
HP - 23" x 23" x 9.5"

Sounds simple enough, but then you have to think of the repercussions. With widths that big, you have to be ok with 10.5" wide Hoosier radial's on a 15x10" wide wheels, that will absolutely destroy everything else, and cost about $350 a piece. And that's just in FP. You then also have to be ok with that same tire being used on your competitors 2000lbs WhatsIt as your 2600lbs ThingamaJig.

If neither of those things bother you, then maybe The Box Rule works for you.
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Have you considered an "existing rim restriction or box rule". Allow any tire on the existing rims sizes, since we know how far those can be pushed, then also designate a new box size to allow larger rims with "reasonable" sized tires. This could be sized to allow 8.5 inches of tread on 9" rims, but not 10" rims, etc.
 
I don’t see how a box rule will save money – I think it will just escalate costs.

There are 2 kinds of tire companies, the mass market producers: Goodyear, Michelin, Bridgestone, Continental and Pirelli (and of course Kumho, Hankook and the others going global) and specialty manufacturers that focus on trailer tires, off road tires, utility tires and racing tires. The mass market producers view racing as a promotional expense to create perceptions in their consumers minds. The specialty guys do it for a living.

We know there are 2 major technologies on the market, Radials; which command all the mass market development investment and finally are generating some interesting possibilities and Bias, which is 1960 technology.

No one is going to “jump in” to make bias racing tires that already isn’t here. That leaves us with Hoosier, Avon, American Racing. Goodyear will be in and out if it makes sense to offset their NASCAR costs. Radial race tires may have a passing interest from the mass market guys but it will be at mercy of how well business is going. So we have a dirt/asphalt circle track company thinking with a few tweaks they could make road racing bias tires – and for this we are changing our rules?. We have a road race company, Hoosier, that has been in the business for 50 years. They have the technology down, the equipment is paid off and the product performs very well. Where is Hoosier investing their development? Radials. The day will come when we all will be racing on radials.

We should keep our rules constant and predictable. If a company can make a better product to fit our rules, they win. To change the rules for some cross over opportunity which then requires new wheels, only runs up the cost. You get what you pay for now days, a $100 tire is not going to beat a $200 tire. I would not pay to insure I came in off the podium. For that $100 tire to be competitive they will have to invest, increase costs and here in America realize, gee the competitive alternative is $200 so why not $150? $175? $195? Now you have new wheels, new set ups and the same costs.

Why not approach Hoosier as a spec tire? At what price would they lock in at for a 5 year deal? Predictable business for them, predictable product for us and we can focus on other things to spend our money on to go faster.. we are good on spending money for our passion (addiction).
 
dspgti":395rm56x said:
Please, no spec tire. Especially those leaky, inconsistant Hoosiers.
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I don't know where you get your information from or when you last tried Hoosier tires, but you are mistaken. In fact, I don't know who you are either - how about identifying yourself, especially when you come on this site and try to run down a company who has been supplying tires to our club for a very long time.
 
Put yourself (as a racer, always looking for the next "unfair advantage") in the shoes of the AR product managers ...

The only limit in this rule is "AR". So AR could build a "super tire", test it in secret, and wait until the runoffs to debut it. Don't you think the AR guys would love to win the runoffs as much as you or I? That win (or wins) alone will pull them out of the "second tier" market and allow them to sell tires to everyone, not just the less competitive among us.

Yes, it would be somewhat cutting their own throats, but I seriously doubt that the club will pull the rug out from under them (and all the of folks that will have invested in wheels by then).

That the CRB/BOD allowed a tire that didn't even exist yet and also didn't limit the rule to a specific model of tire shows a carelessness and lack of attention to detail that has characterized this CRB/BOD for the last few years. Let hope the new BOD members can bring some sanity to this current mess.

-Kyle

<edited for typos>
 
The history of the Club has many instances of unintended consequences. There is certainly great potential for that here. That said, as a long time user of Hoosier tires, it would be nice to have alternative choices. I'm not advocating "tire wars", but rather, sensible wheel and tire rules that allow more choices for the racers. Competition in the market place should stimulate this and hopefully create the economic pressure to contain costs to the end users. YMMV.
 
A smarter man would have brought that plan to AR rather than post it on an internet forum.

DOH :roll:

-Kyle
 
Ron Bartell":2xypzpip said:
dspgti":2xypzpip said:
Please, no spec tire. Especially those leaky, inconsistant Hoosiers.
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I don't know where you get your information from or when you last tried Hoosier tires, but you are mistaken. In fact, I don't know who you are either - how about identifying yourself, especially when you come on this site and try to run down a company who has been supplying tires to our club for a very long time.
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Of course you don't know who I am Ron. Just a back marker, low budget, unfunded seat of the pants type racer. I usually buy 4 new tires and several used to get me through the year. I have never had a set of Hoosiers canti's that didn't have at least one that would leak in the side walls. I had some that would loose a pound during a session. Went down 4 or 5 pounds overnight. God forbid, had to buy new ones at the track and couldn't heat cycling and store. Toast in two or three weekends. My bad, wasn't prepared.

I have been racing for 20 years and have bought about 80% Hoosiers. Still, I am not their biggest fan. I look at them as a necessary evil. Want to win? pay up. I was never good enough or ran in events that would count to win free tires.

I welcome an alternative, economical tire selection.

Dave Yeager
84 Rabbit GTI
10 time Solo 1, Time trial/East Coast and NEdiv Hillclimb Champion and cousre record holder DSP, FSP, EP, HP, ITC, SM
2 time NJRRC HP class champion.
 
Nothing wrong with having an alternative economical tire selection. I hope it works out for those who have requested it. Goodyear certainly wasn't that alternative as it was just as expensive as Hoosiers. Maybe the AR tires will be too when they get something that works. Who knows.

I was reacting to your un-called for and by my experience inaccurate assessment of Hoosier, and while competition is generally good, I certainly wouldn't want to be in a position where all we had available was a tire from a company that hopes to some day get it right. I haven't run the canti tires for some time on my car, but when I last ran them they didn't leak and were consistent. Also, I just recently bought a set for a rental and they were perfect, so you have had some bad luck or leaky wheels. The radials have also been fine. Many years ago the Hoosiers were known to leak but that hasn't been true for some time now.

I guess I should have known who you are. Sorry, didn't recognize the alphabet soup user name. Better if you use a signature.
 
I have run Hoosiers and GoodYear canti's. I found the bias Hoosiers would not hold pressure overnight. Last year I bought a set of radials and Hoosier seems to have fixed the problem.

Personally, I think having more then one tire manufacturer in the game would be great and do away with the contingincy (sp) money. Why should the back markers pay for the tires for the pointy end guys???? Let's see how many pointy end guys stay with Hoosiers if they aren't getting free tires and there is a cheaper and potentially just as good alternative.
 
No one likes to have their hand forced as with the GY to Hoosier switch many of us went through last year.

I too remember the old Hoosiers that lost pressure and weren't the equal of the GY on track.

I was very pleasantly surprised by the current generation of bias canti Hoosiers in 2013. They were at least the equal of the GY on track, did not suffer leaking issues (I went through 4-5 sets in 2013 with zero leaks), and they are competitive for at least as long as the GY. I was also concerned that the Hoosiers would give up if pushed on a hot day. This never happened. I even wonder if the softer (35b) compound might have been a good call for the cool days of the runoffs.

In fact the GYs had an issue where they would wear unevenly with a high wear band on the inside (not camber related). The Hoosier does not suffer from this (with the same setup). And since this wear band defined the useful life of the GY, the Hoosier certainly has a longer overall lifespan.

-Kyle
 
I never ran the Hoosier bias slick until Goodyear dumped us.. I was so surprised at how superior, in my opinion, they were to the Goodyears!! they never leaked (GDY did), had terrific - even wear, the handling was much better and they lasted longer. I would not go back to Goodyear - even thought the Hoosiers cost more. Since the Hoosiers wore better and ran better they saved me money on a total cost basis compared to GDY.
 
Maybe the rule should just control the contact patch, not the rim size.
IE; HP can use any tire that rolls over the chalk at less than 8 in width measured at 20 or 25# psi. Allow any 13-15 in rim up to 8in

I dont see any reason to allow one tire to use a wider rim.
 
Protech Racing":wmt0aime said:
I dont see any reason to allow one tire to use a wider rim.
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Even the people who blindly support the AR tire can't give a reason for the allowance.
 
Hey Guys,
I have a question unrelated to the canti / non canti argument.

Does anyone know what sizes that American Racing Tire is going to offer in their road racing slicks?
There is still no mention of them on their website and what sizes will be available.

Looking at their other asphalt offerings for stock cars they are all really big & tall tires (in 15" sizes)
I'm wondering if there will be any smaller offerings...

Cheers
jimmy
 
Well they are offering a 23.5x10x15 that is pretty much identical to the Hoosier 23x9.5x15 cantilever tire in section and tread width. Its just a little taller. I do not know on the 13" rim stuff.
 
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