"Good Guy" can be construed anyway you want; nice, fast or whatever. My point is if an act of God, like weather, is not a reason what is? I realize he waited to the end of season but that's not unreasonable if it's a double and you only need a finish. Take the option away; no waiver rule - period; or use it where appropriate.
Should BoD or Runoffs Class Entrants Decide Waivers??
- Thread starter peterzekert
- Start date
David Kicak
Well-known member
disquek":34dswdj0 said:
What kind of statement is that ?
Fast guys do not deserve to attend the runoffs if they did not meet the requirements besides fast guys do not always win
The runoffs has not and will not be the best of the best until the rule is enforced concerning the minimum requirement. As it stands now anyone with a pulse and just 4 races can attend :roll:
Live by the rule and die by the rule
blamkin86
Well-known member
peterzekert":3j13af42 said:
FP Racer":3j13af42 said:
Sorry, the facts in this case don't warrant an exception. Peter skipped from January 'til September -knowing he needed finishes- and rolled the dice on his own..
This has nothing to do with the BOD, this is just bad planning.
If Isaac hadn't rolled in, and the car had broken both days this past weekend, none of you would be screaming at the SCCA.
By any chance, is this Peter's first season in the hurricane belt?
Ah, the rules …. A class with fewer than 10 qualified drivers entered who have participated in at least one on track session at the current year’s Runoffs may race as a supplemental class, but will not name a National Champion. ….. FC and T-1 each have 9 entries – so for 2012 there will be no FC or T-1 National Champion – so just what do these people race for all year ?? some drivers are going to be penalized by the Board because for some unknown reason some drivers decided not to participate in the Runoffs – this must make sense to someone ….. perhaps a waiver should be granted …..
Ah, the rules …. Invitations will be sent ….. read the rules close enough and the invitations should not be issued or sent out until the last National race of the season has been given the checkered flag …. Yet they went out long before that which makes it possible that some of those who registered early would later be denied entry ….. this must make sense to someone …… perhaps a waiver should be granted …..
David,
To answer your question, the reason I choose the term "fast" to describe who should be invited is because the runoffs are supposed to be our method of determining who is the fastest club racer in the country. Not the guys who runs the most races, the most popular, prettiest, or who has the best hair. The fastest. Period.
The qualifying rules are supposed to be our way to make sure that the race includes all of the fastest guys. The rules are deeply flawed in that regard. It's been repeated on this forum unanimously over and over.
Sometimes due to circumstances beyond our control, like hurricanes (and in Peter's case, other significant life circumstances) things happen that prevent us from fulfilling the letter of the rules, even though it's obvious to everyone involved that, based on the intent of the rules, this person will add value to the event. That is the purpose of a waiver and the purpose of leadership.
To be honest, Peter and I are not close. I haven't spoken to Peter since the runoffs in 2011. He may not be all that disappointed to be missing the 2012 runoffs. And in my opinion THAT would be the tragedy of this failure of leadership. Peter is, not just because he is fast, the kind of person we need to keep in the club. Sending him the message that his club-mates consider their deeply flawed rules (we've all agreed on at least that much) more important that his bid helps no one and hurts everyone.
I work as a steward and at every event I see scores of folks that want the rules bent just a little for them. Often they do things like pitch a melt down fit in impound, or act shocked when they roll over the scales a few pounds (or in some cases a few hundred pounds) light, or when they show up with obviously unrepaired contact damage again and again. or start spewing excuses when they're asked about contact. There is no end to it. I've always error-ed on the side of "make it fun" rather than "throw the book at them". I think will continue to do that, but I guess I'll be just a little more cynical after this display of unsympathetic attitudes.
To answer your question, the reason I choose the term "fast" to describe who should be invited is because the runoffs are supposed to be our method of determining who is the fastest club racer in the country. Not the guys who runs the most races, the most popular, prettiest, or who has the best hair. The fastest. Period.
The qualifying rules are supposed to be our way to make sure that the race includes all of the fastest guys. The rules are deeply flawed in that regard. It's been repeated on this forum unanimously over and over.
Sometimes due to circumstances beyond our control, like hurricanes (and in Peter's case, other significant life circumstances) things happen that prevent us from fulfilling the letter of the rules, even though it's obvious to everyone involved that, based on the intent of the rules, this person will add value to the event. That is the purpose of a waiver and the purpose of leadership.
To be honest, Peter and I are not close. I haven't spoken to Peter since the runoffs in 2011. He may not be all that disappointed to be missing the 2012 runoffs. And in my opinion THAT would be the tragedy of this failure of leadership. Peter is, not just because he is fast, the kind of person we need to keep in the club. Sending him the message that his club-mates consider their deeply flawed rules (we've all agreed on at least that much) more important that his bid helps no one and hurts everyone.
I work as a steward and at every event I see scores of folks that want the rules bent just a little for them. Often they do things like pitch a melt down fit in impound, or act shocked when they roll over the scales a few pounds (or in some cases a few hundred pounds) light, or when they show up with obviously unrepaired contact damage again and again. or start spewing excuses when they're asked about contact. There is no end to it. I've always error-ed on the side of "make it fun" rather than "throw the book at them". I think will continue to do that, but I guess I'll be just a little more cynical after this display of unsympathetic attitudes.
Ah, the rules ….. From January to almost the first of September racers believe that if they meet the entry requirements they can participate in the Runoffs – then at the last minute SCCA informs FC and T-1 you will be a supplemental class and no Runoffs for you – SCCA has been very proud of contingency funds now approaching several million dollars – so not only are FC and T-1 excluded from the Runoffs but their competing for contingencies worth up to $ 100,000 (average per race group) are out the window ….. this must make sense to someone …… perhaps a waiver should be granted …..
team-gpracing
Well-known member
disquek":25xcdzty said:
And regardless of hurricanes, deaths, babies, health, he chose not to race. It just doesn't matter. It sounds like a waiver would be nice, but it isn't fair. Plain and simple.
blamkin86
Well-known member
Kyle, I spent the night in the hospital and missed the much-criticized Pueblo Majors. Should I have asked for a waiver? I spent race money paying for my hospital visit, then had to come up with more money to go to Hastings to qualify.
Woody Adams had a heart attack, wasn't able to qualify, got cleared in time - but wasn't granted a waiver.
Where do you draw the line?
If you grant an exception here, you are saying the only people who get an exception are those who are fast, or are good people, or people the club wants. That's wrong.
Woody Adams had a heart attack, wasn't able to qualify, got cleared in time - but wasn't granted a waiver.
Where do you draw the line?
If you grant an exception here, you are saying the only people who get an exception are those who are fast, or are good people, or people the club wants. That's wrong.
One more time .....
Please dont put words in my mouth. I've been very clear (explicit) that "good person" is not a criteria.
A waiver makes sense if you have both extenuating circumstances that prevented you from meeting the qualification (any of your examples would work for me), and you are fast enough that it's obvious beyond a doubt that you would have made it. You could be Gandhi or Hitler.
Waivers require judgement. You can't create an algorithm for judgement. We elect people that we hope possess good judgement. IMHO, the result in this case was not the product of good judgement.
I cant say regarding either of the people you list, I just don't know their on-track performance. But their circumstances, in my mine, warrant consideration.
Wake up people. No one cares about our sport except us. We need to keep "us" from shrinking. I'd bet that if everyone reading this post went into the street right now and asked every person that walked by all day, we'd be lucky to find ten people who have even heard of the runoffs. This is not the Olympics or a presidential nomination. It never will be. We need to make it fun or people will stop doing it all together.
-Kyle
Please dont put words in my mouth. I've been very clear (explicit) that "good person" is not a criteria.
A waiver makes sense if you have both extenuating circumstances that prevented you from meeting the qualification (any of your examples would work for me), and you are fast enough that it's obvious beyond a doubt that you would have made it. You could be Gandhi or Hitler.
Waivers require judgement. You can't create an algorithm for judgement. We elect people that we hope possess good judgement. IMHO, the result in this case was not the product of good judgement.
I cant say regarding either of the people you list, I just don't know their on-track performance. But their circumstances, in my mine, warrant consideration.
Wake up people. No one cares about our sport except us. We need to keep "us" from shrinking. I'd bet that if everyone reading this post went into the street right now and asked every person that walked by all day, we'd be lucky to find ten people who have even heard of the runoffs. This is not the Olympics or a presidential nomination. It never will be. We need to make it fun or people will stop doing it all together.
-Kyle
Protech Racing
Well-known member
The nats requirement is just a money/time requirement, not a talent requirement.
If you truly want to race against the best, the nats would be open to qualifying on site. I am sure that there is some correlation to nats races run and overall speed,
but many of us have other lives and places to spend money.
This goes along with the elitist perception of the National level racer.( of himself)
The national /regional crap has run it's course back in the 90s.
Time to move on.
The opinions shown here are that of real selfcentered asshats, and non sporting racers, that value a small trophy over quality racing among friends. Poor showing, your mothers would not be happy.
If you truly want to race against the best, the nats would be open to qualifying on site. I am sure that there is some correlation to nats races run and overall speed,
but many of us have other lives and places to spend money.
This goes along with the elitist perception of the National level racer.( of himself)
The national /regional crap has run it's course back in the 90s.
Time to move on.
The opinions shown here are that of real selfcentered asshats, and non sporting racers, that value a small trophy over quality racing among friends. Poor showing, your mothers would not be happy.
peterzekert
Well-known member
Mike, I talked to Dave Finch yesterday. I believe you are mistaken. He did race 2005 in GT2 on a waiver. Petermengelke":29tb95jk said:
blamkin86
Well-known member
Protech Racing":12k0dsrq said:
Mike I looked back at some of your posts in older threads- you seem like a decent guy so I'll give you a pass on the name calling. Just remember that reasonable people don't always agree.
I've already said how I feel about this waiver, and we disagree. So be it - I respect your opinion.
I think there seems to be three widely-variant ideas on who should get to race at the runoffs:
1) Everyone can race. We need the money. It's all for fun, anyway and we're all friends
2) Simple qualifications. Used to be top 3 in the division - now it's really really easy, but you have to at least get out and finish 4 races.
3) At-event qualifications. Everyone (with a national license) can go, but only 110% rule gets to race (or top 20 or whatever).
The fundamental question, which still hasn't been answered, is whether the runoffs are for prestige, or if that doesn't matter any more.
(Edit) The more I think about it, the more #3 sort of solves both problems.
Oh and I'll say it again: My personal bias is to do away with a single race for the national championship, and have a series of races all over the country. You want to say you're the national champ, then prove it across many races and against many good drivers all over the country.
team-gpracing
Well-known member
disquek":3kee0o82 said:
I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just making a point. We all have reasons why we can't make races. Some decisions to skip a race are easy, some are not. One person's easy may not be the same as another.
Example:
Racer A's mom dies the day before a race. He hated her. He goes to the race instead of the funeral.
Racer B's cat dies the day before a race. He loved that little guy. He skips the race to bury him in the backyard.
This discussion doesn't affect me. I don't race Nationals. I was just offering an opinion from a logical standpoint. While I understand that not giving waivers can push some drivers away, those drivers should understand that not everyone is necessarily sympathetic to their situation.
Bobby Lentz
Well-known member
mengelke":2f5n2rls said:
This is incorrect. He was granted a waiver and allowed to run. He finished second.
Hello everyone,
As you probably know I usually don't post much or get involved in these things, in fact I had to create a new account to even get on here.
It seams to be in qusetion why I didn't qualify sooner.
The fact is, I wasn't trying to, this was going to be an off year. I ran the first four nationals to keep my license, support the class, support my local regions, and of course have some fun.
As the Runoffs grew closer and after talking to other racers I realized the class (GTL) needed more entries at the big event.
I figured that I still had time to prep the car and go to Barber and qualify. Of course things didn't go as planed on the dyno with the new engine. Plenty of time to switch back to the other engine until the storm came that week and then priorities changed.
I figured that there was no harm in asking for a waiver at that point (didnt know it was that big of a deal).
Anyway, I am sorry for stirring the pot.
Hope everyone has a good Runoffs! I'll be offshore fishing!!!!!
Peter Shadowen
#72 GTL
As you probably know I usually don't post much or get involved in these things, in fact I had to create a new account to even get on here.
It seams to be in qusetion why I didn't qualify sooner.
The fact is, I wasn't trying to, this was going to be an off year. I ran the first four nationals to keep my license, support the class, support my local regions, and of course have some fun.
As the Runoffs grew closer and after talking to other racers I realized the class (GTL) needed more entries at the big event.
I figured that I still had time to prep the car and go to Barber and qualify. Of course things didn't go as planed on the dyno with the new engine. Plenty of time to switch back to the other engine until the storm came that week and then priorities changed.
I figured that there was no harm in asking for a waiver at that point (didnt know it was that big of a deal).
Anyway, I am sorry for stirring the pot.
Hope everyone has a good Runoffs! I'll be offshore fishing!!!!!
Peter Shadowen
#72 GTL
Peter... Appreciate your situation as the storm went over us as we were preparing to for the Sep 1/2 Sebring regional. Just made it but busted hump to get there. Still doing storm stuff but survived both storm and weekend. Thought: It's got to do your phyche good to know that you can get this many pages of support, non-support, comment,etc. over something you had no control over. Probably, if all these folks didn't care about what we all do nothing would have come out of all this.
Enjoy the fishing!
Bob Hess... Isaac surviver
Enjoy the fishing!
Bob Hess... Isaac surviver