Runoffs location poll

[Greg Amy]

Greg - can you expand on your comment about F&C at VIR?

VIR has informed NCRSCCA that effective 1/1/2024 that SCCA (and NASA, I'm told) cannot provide heir own F&C team and will be required to buy VIR's paid flagging staff.

I heard over the weekend that this "wasn't a done deal" so I'm surmising negotiations are still in progress.

Something I wrote in the Prod FB group, in response to significant contact and resulting FCYs over the weekend...

--------------------------------

The MR2 got taken out toward the end of Sunday's racing, causing the FCY and early checker...

There are a lot of things going on at VIR, and within the Club, that are likely to result in our [edit: my team] not going back to VIR, and possible Majors racing, after the '23 Runoffs.

First, there was my big solo performance crash there in April '22, where it took the safety team TWO AND A HALF MINUTES to get to me against the wall at T14 -- from South Paddock -- because VIR wouldn't roll Safety until the field is fully under control. My bell was so rung and I had no idea where I was, and had that car caught on fire I'm not confident I would have known the difference.

And by "fully under control" I mean FULLY UNDER CONTROL of the safety/pace car. I listened to F&C all weekend and there was an incident in Sunday's G1 race at T10, car against the wall. The EP group leader was *just* coming up on the Tail End Charlie (TEC) HProd car when the FCY yellow and the safety car was tossed out. Safety/Pace car picked up the leader the let TEC go to catch up. Safety vehicles at the tower were spooled up and their lights turned on BUT HELD while the safety/pace car collected the field -- and they WAITED for TEC, who had a damaged trans and no fifth gear, to go all the way around and get to the back of the pack.

"Waited" as in it took some 2-3 laps for TEC to catch up before the safety vehicles got dispatched! Two to three laps while who knows what was going on inside the car. I witnessed this myself, watching from the balcony and listening to the radio.

Now, I'm not gonna go off on a rant and talk about how we drivers brought this [situation] on ourselves, cause we did. But I'm fairly convinced that there is no legal or moral reason to punish a driver in a disabled car because of it. VIR's policies are going to result in someone suffering serious injuries - or worse - due to lack of timely response and I really don't think I want to be a part of this.

Second thing is these new walls. As has been said many times, these walls do not increase driver safety, they increase driver risk. The wall that I hit last year hurt BAD, the worst bodily-injury wreck that I've had in over 35 years of racing. Yet the incident itself was no worse that many others -- until it was. These walls appear to be designed to protect VIR's liabilities, not us drivers. I came to a stop so hard that my head is still ringing today and I think I'm pretty lucky to be around.

And yet they keep adding more walls.

Third thing, and the final nail, is that VIR has told SCCA (and NASA, I hear) that we can no longer bring our volunteer F&C workers to VIR, that we have to pay for VIR's staff to cover all corners (many of which will no doubt come from our F&C club members). You know, the staff that is prohibited from responding to crashes until the field is fully under control? Coupled to a "no touch the surface" policy, means even more additional expense at an already-very-expensive track and additional reduction in safety response. Because while I know that a "no touch" policy applies to SCCA members as well, I also know that if I'm on fire I'm very confident that my fellow members will jump across the wall and try to help me and suffer whatever consequences may come of it, whereas a paid employee is less likely to risk their check.

I suspect all of this points right back to VIR saying "eff you" to SCCA telling THEM to pound sand on the whole Code 35 thing. It all comes across to me as VIR saying "Ok, you don't want to do that? Well, we'll see how soon your tune changes..."

Just my personal opinion and observation, based on no more knowledge than what you have.

And then there's our driving. There's some really good driving out there...but there's some really disrespectful, selfish, and downright hateful driving out there. And this is not isolated to VIR, witnessed by some results and damaged cars the weekend before. There's just too many people out there driving like this is Internet-pretend and they're immortal.

It all comes down to a point where Ed and I are very seriously and honestly re-thinking that once our 2023 commitments to the Runoffs and VIR are completed we'll move on, racing other places and events. Maybe even something like the TTNT program.

Because this is very quickly becoming a lot less fun.

 

[Greg Amy]

And while we're drifting off the original point of this topic...recent changes have given us a toolset to address the driving concerns, if we're willing to step up and use it.

All on-track Chief Steward's Action, CSA, now come with a mandatory 1-point penalty. CSAs are issued at the sole discretion of the Chief Steward/Race Director, without the need to go through the Stewards of the Meet (SOM) to debate it. Write it up, and hand it over to the offender, done.

However, that action is subject to protest by any involved party, which would then go to the SOM for deliberation. I call this the "benevolent dictator John Bishop Rule" but with an opportunity for protest.

Do note that if the situation is not clear, or deserves further investigation before action, then the Chief Steward would issue an RFA, Request for Action, and hand that to the SOM to investigate and adjudicate (and could be appealed), with penalties subject to GCR guidelines (typically, more than one point).

If a Chief Steward really wanted to clean things up then he/she would start tossing down CSAs, with its associated one penalty point, for the obvious contacts and then let the parties decide if they wish to protest. This would allow accumulation of points on a driver's record, with the possibility of subsequent probation or even suspension. Clearly this requires Race Directors/Chief Stewards with solid motivation and tolerant SOMs, so I personally have doubts that our culture is there yet. But it needs to be.

On a totally unrelated side note, I'm a National Steward now. - GA

 

[harvey]

And while we're drifting off the original point of this topic...recent changes have given us a toolset to address the driving concerns, if we're willing to step up and use it.

All on-track Chief Steward's Action, CSA, now come with a mandatory 1-point penalty. CSAs are issued at the sole discretion of the Chief Steward/Race Director, without the need to go through the Stewards of the Meet (SOM) to debate it. Write it up, and hand it over to the offender, done.

However, that action is subject to protest by any involved party, which would then go to the SOM for deliberation. I call this the "benevolent dictator John Bishop Rule" but with an opportunity for protest.

Do note that if the situation is not clear, or deserves further investigation before action, then the Chief Steward would issue an RFA, Request for Action, and hand that to the SOM to investigate and adjudicate (and could be appealed), with penalties subject to GCR guidelines (typically, more than one point).

If a Chief Steward really wanted to clean things up then he/she would start tossing down CSAs, with its associated one penalty point, for the obvious contacts and then let the parties decide if they wish to protest. This would allow accumulation of points on a driver's record, with the possibility of subsequent probation or even suspension. Clearly this requires Race Directors/Chief Stewards with solid motivation and tolerant SOMs, so I personally have doubts that our culture is there yet. But it needs to be.

On a totally unrelated side note, I'm a National Steward now. - GA

This sounds like a really good start to some of our issues as a club, now we just need to have Stewards that are willing to act and follow through.

 

[GT6]

While we are all respectful, friendly, and valued CLUB members who share common goals, I do not think it should be the first reaction or first option to put this policing on the shoulders of the Stewards.
Maybe Stewards are the second or third line of defense.

I think drivers in the class/run group should be the first line of action and defense against inappropriate driving by way of member selection, setting the atmosphere/ethos, single driver protests, and maybe group protests.
It's simply psychologically and physiologically much closer and therefore more effective to have the most immediate group (people on track together) create the guiding and corrective influence.

What do we want OUR club to be?
People can go to other organizations. (aka "not our problem")
This is supposed to be fun, it needs to be fun.

 

[harvey]

The biggest issue that we have right now is what I call stroke a check mentality. It appears that there are a large group of racers at this point in time that don't take anyone other than themselves really into consideration and if it ends badly they just pay someone to fix their car and have no blood/sweat in the game so it really doesn't effect them. The other group is mainly using Family, Trust fund/Daddy's money and once again its part of the "Game" to them to trash things replace and move on the very next weekend.

The issues we face have not been created over night nor will they go away overnight but without some consequences it will Never stop. This needs to start with us as racers to try and do everything in our power to try and instill Sportsmanship into our new racers and remind others that we are all racing for the same piece of wood and for the most part most of us aren't going to end up in Professional Racing where it becomes a Money game.

 

[Chris Schaafsma]

While we are all respectful, friendly, and valued CLUB members who share common goals, I do not think it should be the first reaction or first option to put this policing on the shoulders of the Stewards.
Maybe Stewards are the second or third line of defense.

I think drivers in the class/run group should be the first line of action and defense against inappropriate driving by way of member selection, setting the atmosphere/ethos, single driver protests, and maybe group protests.
It's simply psychologically and physiologically much closer and therefore more effective to have the most immediate group (people on track together) create the guiding and corrective influence.

What do we want OUR club to be?
People can go to other organizations. (aka "not our problem")
This is supposed to be fun, it needs to be fun.

I could not disagree more with your point here. What part of asking drivers to discipline the people they are trusting to not injure them or their car on track sounds fun to you? We've been taking the driver self policing approach for decades, and it is (in part) the reason we are where we are today. Drivers make optimistic, aggressive, or overtly illegal moves on track, other drivers see it, but worry about losing a protest, or facing retribution (and oh by the way need to make that decision within minutes of getting out of a full sensory loaded, ultra intense racing environment). So most drivers then go pack up their stuff and start heading home.
Sure there are some drivers who will take the tough step to protest (There are also some officials that will then try to talk them out of that), and we need more to do so, BUT the person with the best positional power, and objective view is the steward.

One of the PURPOSES of stewards is to ensure that the event operates smoothly within the rules and regulations of the club. There is no other role in the club that is more well suited to take proactive action to identify/highlight, and evaluate/penalize driving behavior (or official behavior) outside the desired rules & norms of the club.

 

[GT6]

Chris, I feel that I understand what you have written.

My only replies, as just ONE of us, are as follows;

"asking drivers to discipline the people they are trusting"
I would not ask, I would demand and expect this. Just like we expect people to show up in compliance with the GCR.

"We've been taking the driver self policing approach for decades."
There is no doubt that this is a constant and continual challenge.

"There is no other role in the club that is more well suited."
If this is the case, then you've already lost.


I don't have much more to say on this topic except to suggest that we deal with this same issue in all other aspects of our lives and society, and have been for tens of thousands of years.

 

[Erickz]

wow...and I am starting my Steward-In-Training program in a couple weeks! Oh joy!
ez

 

[Matt Blehm]

Chris, I feel that I understand what you have written.

My only replies, as just ONE of us, are as follows;

"asking drivers to discipline the people they are trusting"
I would not ask, I would demand and expect this. Just like we expect people to show up in compliance with the GCR.

"We've been taking the driver self policing approach for decades."
There is no doubt that this is a constant and continual challenge.

"There is no other role in the club that is more well suited."
If this is the case, then you've already lost.


I don't have much more to say on this topic except to suggest that we deal with this same issue in all other aspects of our lives and society, and have been for tens of thousands of years.

I don't want to put words in Chris' mouth, but what I understand from his point is that we, the racers, are expected to police ourselves and the stewards only 'react' to protests placed by others. The whole system then wonders why we have little action.

If you were walking down the street and you saw someone vandalizing a business, would you attempt a citizens arrest/call the police, write up an accusation, then pay money up front and wait around for hours to get law enforcement to look at the issue and possibly make an arrest and give your money back?

What happens next time you're walking in that area and the accused sees you walking down the street minding your own business? he's now more likely to vandalize you.

The protest/ self-policing system should be there for things the stewards don't see or aren't aware of (cheated up cars, non-reported contact or illegal driving). But racers shouldn't have to protest every bump and nudge and crash that was painfully obvious to the folks in the tower watching the race. In many cases they saw it happen. sometimes it gets witnessed by corner workers and called in as contact; the F&C worker is asked to write up a contact report and file it at the end of the day "just in case someone protests it". But the stewards don't take action until a competitor protests, which in effect helps to turn racers against each other instead of racing hard and clean and sharing beers at the end of the day.. this is what should be addressed.

 

[Chris Schaafsma]

Chris, I feel that I understand what you have written.

My only replies, as just ONE of us, are as follows;

"asking drivers to discipline the people they are trusting"
I would not ask, I would demand and expect this. Just like we expect people to show up in compliance with the GCR.

"We've been taking the driver self policing approach for decades."
There is no doubt that this is a constant and continual challenge.

"There is no other role in the club that is more well suited."
If this is the case, then you've already lost.


I don't have much more to say on this topic except to suggest that we deal with this same issue in all other aspects of our lives and society, and have been for tens of thousands of years.

I don't want to put words in Chris' mouth, but what I understand from his point is that we, the racers, are expected to police ourselves and the stewards only 'react' to protests placed by others. The whole system then wonders why we have little action.

If you were walking down the street and you saw someone vandalizing a business, would you attempt a citizens arrest/call the police, write up an accusation, then pay money up front and wait around for hours to get law enforcement to look at the issue and possibly make an arrest and give your money back?

What happens next time you're walking in that area and the accused sees you walking down the street minding your own business? he's now more likely to vandalize you.

The protest/ self-policing system should be there for things the stewards don't see or aren't aware of (cheated up cars, non-reported contact or illegal driving). But racers shouldn't have to protest every bump and nudge and crash that was painfully obvious to the folks in the tower watching the race. In many cases they saw it happen. sometimes it gets witnessed by corner workers and called in as contact; the F&C worker is asked to write up a contact report and file it at the end of the day "just in case someone protests it". But the stewards don't take action until a competitor protests, which in effect helps to turn racers against each other instead of racing hard and clean and sharing beers at the end of the day.. this is what should be addressed.

Thanks Matt - that is the gist of what I was trying to say.

Don't get me wrong. I empathize with the stewards as well (but I'll say it again, this is one of the cores of the steward role), because it has reached a point that no one expects a steward to take action - so when one does they get criticized. What would happen if every dangerous, bone-headed, illegal contact and driving infraction that stewards saw was written up? There would be some form of driver out-cry that we were being over officiated. It's a bit of a lose - lose for the stewards. HOWEVER - if you change that view from all or nothing to, acting on the obvious stuff I don't think there would be much push back. Of course the offending parties will push back, that's the nature of the beast.

I had a CSA written on me at my first runoffs, and yes I was a little miffed that I had to stay at the track until 10pm by the time it was all said and done to protest, and win that decision to be reinstated to the podium - but at the end of the day it was a meaningful "play" in the game (a spin that decided a tight battle for the podium), and everyone is confident that we had the right outcome.

 

[Greg Amy]

I'll offer that I've been screaming for years from the mountaintop about self-policing. I'm well on record as saying "you're unhappy? File a protest". Or "you don't think the car is compliant? File a protest."

But history shows it's just not working.

It could have a lot to do with changes in culture and attitude, but many drivers are of the mindset that the stewards "should do something about this."

So they are.

Maybe coupled to drivers actually choosing to toss paper against contact instigators (har de har) we can change the culture. If not, accumulation of a handful of penalties might get the point across...

I guess we'll see.

GA

 

[GT6]

When something is hard and takes continual proaction, I often find myself wanting someone else to take care of it for me.
Even better, if that someone else was a fellow club member, friend, and someone who just wanted to have a fun day with race cars.
Even better if I demand that fellow club member, friend, person who is supporting my hobby, and person who just wants to spend a day having fun with race cars, do the hard thing for free.

Then I snap out of it and realize what a pathetic attitude this is.

Aside from ideology, I don't think we're paying our fellow club member, friend, and person who just wants to have a fun day around race cars, enough to demand that they do something unpleasant for us while we sit back and wait for something to happen. (do you really need to put numbers on paper to figure out how much entry fees would be if you were in a position to demand this?)

Are you willing/able to look in the eyes of a fellow club member, friend, and person who is supporting your hobby for free, and say, "take care of this for me, I'm unable or unwilling to do it."?


The following is a joke (but not);
Kim Jong-un is reading some of these posts, getting very excited, and saying, "hold my kombucha, I got this, I can take care of EVERYTHING for you."

 

[Matt Blehm]

There's a difference between expecting people to "do things for you" and expecting stewards to enforce the rules on record. With the current "self-policing" method stewards and tech do not act- they react, and only when forced by competitors throwing paper to do so. I don't like tattling on fellow competitors, and I shouldn't have to when stewards are sitting in a tower watching the action happen and the body damage is obvious when I roll through impound. The evidence is already there, it just needs to be acted on.

This is as simple as someone in impound saying "Hey, I have a report of contact on lap x of the race and you have a big dent on your fender. Was this a racing incident or is action required?"
If the answer is "I zigged when he zagged. no big deal." then the problem is gone. If the answer is "THAT @#(%&@% NEEDS TO XYZABC123!!!", then the stewards need to take some initative and investigate further without the competitors having to throw time, paper, and (more) money onto an already difficult situation.

I think we're beginning to go that direction, but it's a slow ship to adjust.

 

[Greg Amy]

Anthony, how many driver protests have you filed over the many years you've been racing? I know you've tossed a few, but if you are not doing it for every one that is egregious, then you are part of this "we'll just police ourselves" problem.

We're going to make that random element less important, otherwise change will not happen.

Chat over beverages at NHMS in a couple weeks.

GA

 

[Protech Racing]

Maybe we can adopt a pro /Chumpcar style deal . Any Contact requires the overtaking car a pit pass through every time .
The SCCA steward deal is very cumbersome . Shit you need a a navigator . The one time that we tried to protest , we finally found the right guy, for our groups, he looked at his watch and said that our time had expired.

 

[Chris Schaafsma]

Then I snap out of it and realize what a pathetic attitude this is.

Are you willing/able to look in the eyes of a fellow club member, friend, and person who is supporting your hobby for free, and say, "take care of this for me, I'm unable or unwilling to do it."?

The irony is that you are showing exactly the attitude you describe as well, and you are asking exactly this question.

Reading 5.12.3 tells me everything we are discussing is part of the role.

Yes drivers are empowered to also trigger enforcement, and to say they don’t is not true. However there are significantly different relationship dynamics between drivers than between stews and drivers. No one will force you off track in the next brake zone, or use your car as brakes in the one after that, or sit on the side of the track waiting for you to come around again to intentionally hit you at speed.

I’ll stand by my opinion that drivers have a role here, but Stewards have ownership of how the event is conducted by all parties, and we have a clear body of evidence that drivers are not comfortable doing enough on their own to address bad driving behavior. We need to consider something different if we want a change to take place.

 

[David Dewhurst]

No one will force you off track in the next brake zone, or use your car as brakes in the one after that, or sit on the side of the track waiting for you to come around again to intentionally hit you at speed.

J.

Be careful Chris. A bunch of years ago at the Mid Ohio runoffs a car after a race waited at the top of hill (T 5 or 8) depending on course run and whacked the race winner. IIRC the driver who did the whacking was/is a former Runoffs winner. Not a production car, but a closed car.

There are rules in place for accident investigators, Stewards, Corner Workers and Drivers need to follow through.

J. If a car is involved in an accident or is damaged as a result of mechanical failure, the damage must be noted in the Vehicle Logbook by the accident investigator or Chief Technical Inspector.

5.12.4. Assistant Chief Steward – Safety
The Assistant Chief Steward – Safety is responsible to the Race Director or Chief Steward for the following:
A. Investigate accidents and forward the originals of all reports, including original releases, to the Sanc- tion/Insurance Department of the SCCA.

 

[Peter Olivola]

No one will force you off track in the next brake zone, or use your car as brakes in the one after that, or sit on the side of the track waiting for you to come around again to intentionally hit you at speed.

J.

Be careful Chris. A bunch of years ago at the Mid Ohio runoffs a car after a race waited at the top of hill (T 5 or 8) depending on course run and whacked the race winner. IIRC the driver who did the whacking was/is a former Runoffs winner. Not a production car, but a closed car.

There are rules in place for accident investigators, Stewards, Corner Workers and Drivers need to follow through.

J. If a car is involved in an accident or is damaged as a result of mechanical failure, the damage must be noted in the Vehicle Logbook by the accident investigator or Chief Technical Inspector.

5.12.4. Assistant Chief Steward – Safety
The Assistant Chief Steward – Safety is responsible to the Race Director or Chief Steward for the following:
A. Investigate accidents and forward the originals of all reports, including original releases, to the Sanc- tion/Insurance Department of the SCCA.

The Safety Steward is not normally involved in CSA/RFA/Protest actions. The reports referenced in that paragraph pertain to property damage and participant injury reports for insurance purposes. The primary responsibility for initiating CSA/RFA actions is the Chief Steward/Race Director or their designee which is usually an ACS Operating Steward. Additional reporting may come from a Steward of the Course when they have conducted an initial interview of the parties involved. If the Safety Steward has been a witness to an incident they will be asked to write a Witness Statement like any other witness.

 

[Matt Blehm]

Be careful Chris. A bunch of years ago at the Mid Ohio runoffs a car after a race waited at the top of hill (T 5 or 8) depending on course run and whacked the race winner. IIRC the driver who did the whacking was/is a former Runoffs winner. Not a production car, but a closed car.

If it's the one I know about, that was 2016, A Sedan, Tom Sloe and Andy McDermid got together early in the race and Sloe made it back up to third while McDermid had the lead. Sloe hit another lapped car and did some damage, then stopped and waited for McDermid to come around, then nailed him.

On one of the rare occasions I agree with the BOD's decisions, the BOD voted unanimously to indefinitely revoke Sloe's membership.
More of the story here, with linked video. I remember watching it and knew for at least a minute before it happened that it was gonna be ugly.

https://racer.com/2016/10/11/scca-board ... uspension/

 

[Greg Amy]

I remember watching it and knew for at least a minute before it happened that it was gonna be ugly.

I was sitting on the spectator berm along that area, watching it develop. I was telling those around me, as he was sitting there, idling, with the leader lapping, "no [effing] way he's going to do that...right?" and they were all "do what...?"

I expect he's never allowed within a 100 yards of a race car again. It'll certainly never happen within the SCCA. - GA