Poll on open hood impound.

Should SCCA Club Racing have open hood impound?

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
Very well put Ron!

That's my main motivator, an atmosphere of trust beats an atmosphere of secrecy.

I don't want to go into specifics, but I was around a situation in the past where a leading car was widely suspected of being, shall we say, very non-compliant. It definitely ruined the whole atmosphere. Open hood can't totally eliminate that but it is a move in the direction of trust and openness. So unlike Kyle I see openness as helping not hurting the fun factor.

One of the reasons that I really like running Prod is that I honestly believe that almost all of the cars are essentially legal and thus I can be too without feeling like a chump.
 
So it will make some people feel better?
That is as ridiculous to me in this arena as teachers not being allowed to use red pen in Rochester schools because red is a harsh color and it makes the kids feel bad to see their mistakes and errors circled in red pen.

This is suppose to be a competiton, a competiton in car prep, ingenuity, and driving. We have a process to deal with cheaters. That process respects the competitors right to proprietory design and ingenuity. If you think someone is cheating, sack up and pull the paper. Do it right, do it at the right time. An open hood impound would do nothing for me had I suspected someone cheating.
They have the right TB, but is it the right ID? Can't tell.
The have the right block, whats the bore? Can't tell.
They have the right head, but is it ported? Whats the valve size? Can't tell.
In the absence of any real tangible reason for open air inspection of
somebody's car. I just don't see a benefit, I only see a fishing expedition.
 
KDENNIS":1rbk9on4 said:
So it will make some people feel better? That is as ridiculous to me in this arena as teachers not being allowed to use red pen in Rochester schools because red is a harsh color and it makes the kids feel bad to see their mistakes and errors circled in red pen.
Click to expand...

It just seems to me that "making some people feel better" might not be a bad thing in retaining participants in what is, however seriously some of us might take it, really just an expensive sport/game/hobby/avocation.

Seriously, though, this is hobby not business (or public education or national defense or anything else necessary) to almost all of us so if the whole thing "feels bad" why the heck would anyone come back? It ain't gonna make us rich.

I get it that more people dislike than like this proposal. But I think it's wrong to try to put a socialist or "everybody gets a trophy" spin on it.....
 
Didn't look back to see how Jason Isley voted, but I voted yes. That said as a former Chief Steward at the SCCA Solo Nationals, where they do open hood impound, I have some first hand experience with silly non competitive protests in stock classes. Ash tray not in dash being the worst abuse in the stock classes. Guys that don't want to open there hood, in my opinion, are only doing it for two reason. They want to have the psychological edge of making people wonder about their development OR they are hiding something that they know is marginal at best and don't wish to prove it otherwise. Since we don't have patent rules on shaving the leading edge of cam followers everyone now has the trick of the month. Personally, it doesn't matter to me on my stuff. I've put my car on the lift and let Weber and Trenery inspect it. Mainly because I value their advice and opinion. I'm confident that if they had an issue with something they'd tell me then.

By the way, my first question to anyone filing a silly protest has always been, "Have you discussed this with the competitor in question?" If they said no I'd ask if they'd run against the person or car previously. My point being why wait until Nationals to let a fellow club member know that what they were doing could prove illegal. To me, that type of behavior is more unsportsmanlike than the guy trying to make his car faster/better while staying inside "their" interpretation of the GCR.

James
Houston Region RE
HP #66 - FP #87 (2012)
 
Al Seim":2wu1ql8h said:
KDENNIS":2wu1ql8h said:
So it will make some people feel better? That is as ridiculous to me in this arena as teachers not being allowed to use red pen in Rochester schools because red is a harsh color and it makes the kids feel bad to see their mistakes and errors circled in red pen.
Click to expand...

It seems ridiculous to me that you can't see that "making some people feel better" might not be a bad thing in retaining participants in what is, however seriously some of us might take it, really just an expensive sport/game/hobby/avocation.

(Not quite sure why it's necessary to denounce one another's ideas as ridiculous but maybe it makes us feel better...) 8)

Seriously, though, this is hobby not business (or public education or national defense or anything else necessary) to almost all of us so if the whole thing "feels bad" why the heck would anyone come back? It ain't gonna make us rich.

I get it that more people dislike than like this proposal. But I think it's silly (see I didn't say ridiculous though I wanted to) to try to put a socialist or "everybody gets a trophy" spin on it.....
Click to expand...
I appologize if I offended you by saying anything was ridiculous. It was not my intention.
I feel strongly about this issue, and it would hurt my feelings if one of my competitors used one of my ideas to make their car faster.
 
Not really offended, just mildly annoyed at the use of the term ridiculous in an otherwise civil discussion.

And I have gone back and edited the sarcasm out of my response, that may be just as bad as what I was responding to!

I do actually understand where you are coming from, you elevate the right to privacy (so to speak) above any real or perceived benefits to an open hood policy. I see enough benefit - mostly wrt fostering an atmosphere of trust which you may find silly - such that it wins. But I will lose no sleep about it not being implemented, it's just an idea. Judging by the poll, not a very popular one!

James raises a point that I had not mentioned, re the Solo Nationals, where they obviously feel that this has value.
 
This all reminds me of a story told by a friend who was a mechanic in the old Trans Am days, worked for a top team. He told me that they would throw in oddball tweaks just so their competitors would copy them, half as a joke and half to waste the competitors' time as a distraction from "real" improvements.

So think of open hood impound as a weapon! :think:
 
Al Seim":rvujyiw1 said:
But I will lose no sleep about it not being implemented, it's just an idea. Judging by the poll, not a very popular one!
Click to expand...

Not as unpopular as I would have thought. I also wouldn't lose much sleep if it was implemented. Just another couple nights in the shop building the mold for the biggest carbonfiber air box that will squeeze into every corner of a 510 engine bay. :lol:
Al Seim":rvujyiw1 said:
This all reminds me of a story told by a friend who was a mechanic in the old Trans Am days, worked for a top team. He told me that they would throw in oddball tweaks just so their competitors would copy them, half as a joke and half to waste the competitors' time as a distraction from "real" improvements.
So think of open hood impound as a weapon! :think:
Click to expand...
Reminds me of a story from 1979 when my old man was crewing for Bill Coykendall. Before heading for the runoffs in atlanta they took an old brown leather brief case. Put an alumnimum plate in it and filled the plate with every dial and meter they could find (all non functioning) the only thing that did anything was the adding machine under the panel that spit out a strip of paper with numbers on it through a slot in the plate. The brief case had a long coiled cord in it and they had put a corresponding dummy plug in the spoiler. as soon as the car stopped, they would plug it in and out comes the "data". Now with today's DA this sounds ridiculous, but in 1979? Story goes, it was the talk of the paddock.
 
I hereby offer an invitation for anyone that wants to see the inside of my engine compartment during impound after a race. Be careful not to get too much leaked oil or boiled coolant on you while you look.
 
My recollection of impound at races that I attended in the late '80's and early '90's was that if a car was required a hood that "held itself up" (IT, SS) on stock hinges open hood impound was pretty common. Classes not requiring that (GT, Prod) did not have open hood impound.

I guess that I wouldn't care but I recognize why some people might.
 
I readily show anything on my car that anyone wants to see but I would not like it to be mandatory. We already have enough rules. I don't see positive benefit from this one.
 
Good discussion and several good points here. I see it as:
Pros
- Atmosphere of trust vs. secrecy.
- Detecting gross irregularities, and to get an idea where an illegality might lie.
- To see what configuration is being run. As Ron said “with all of the different configurations that are out there with limited prep, full-prep, and hybrids, and all of the issues associated with these configurations like wet/dry sumps, stock/dog boxes, and the changes in weight that go along with some of them, I think an open hood is probably a good way to handle the issue.”

Cons
- Protecting secret / proprietary items.
o Is there anything that is really so trick that a simple visual inspection will allow someone to duplicate it and wipe out any competitive advantage?
o If the item really is something new / proprietary, patent it.

L
 
Here is my take on "seeing" under the hood. In my car you would not be able to tell what engine I run other than the basic engine family. Is it an A12/a12a/a13/a14/a15 or a12atall block etc. looking is not going to tell you a dogring gbox in most cases either. It will not tell you if a LP engine is running the correct cam or compression etc. The weight on the side of the car WILL tell you what the claimed package is. Look in the GCR and see what it is supposed to be, when you doubt someone TALK to them. Ask what is in the car as we have seen almost everyone has stated they would show you anything you want. (including the mystery plugin front spoiler :applause: ) I want to keep my limited bright ideas mine, they are so few and far between. This is truly the silly season and I for one can't wait for that da$%@@! ground hog to tell me when spring is coming to us folks in PA.
We should be talking about BOD/CRB plans, promoting our classes/catagories and enjoying our hobby.

Have a happy holiday and a better new year.

Bryan Floyd
 
For me an open hood, and I voted for it, would only work on a Spridget. Would not have any idea what I was looking at on a VW , Honda, etc. I get a feeling that if "tech" was not involved people "might" be more open. In all the years I've been racing only one person ever even shoo'd me away.
 
I would almost say it is a moot point in this area. After many of our races the only thing most drivers are worried about is finding some shade in which to lay prostrate while the crew brings them their secret re-hydration potion.

This all reminds me of the old cop cliche:
Officer: Mind if I look in your car?
Driver: You may not look in my car!
Officer: Do you have something to hide?

My opinion is open hood is a feel good thing that will do little to stop or catch cheating. If you want to see under my hood come by my paddock space and ask. If I have the time I'll open it and answer your questions about my fresh from the junkyard replacement motor. If you are afraid to come talk to me drop paper. Post race impound is recovery time for the over 50 crowd.
 
Everyone is welcome to visit & view my car any time at the track or maybe elsewhere [bring adult beverages]. I'll share all my secrets, all the tweeks and special parts that help me qualify at the back of the pack and finish around there at the end.

:boohoo:

Hasn't always been that way, might not be in the future..........................
 
I voted no on this poll.

I admit that when I started racing against them I found the Dennis' rather secretive approach to their car to be a turn off - it seemed unsportsmanlike to me at the time. Having now spent some serious coin and, more importantly, a gazillion hours reading, experimenting, studying and thinking about how to find another 2 tenths of a second, I understand their attitude completely.
 
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