October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

Wish I could get the Vegas sports bet guys to take bets on this one. I'd put my money on the fast guys going even faster and the not as fast guys still going not as fast. Yes, brakes don't make you any faster, but they do let you stay at that top speed longer and more consistently. But, if it gives all of you that warm feeling you get when you wet yourself, go for it. After all, those after market rods didn't make anyone go faster, did they? An engine that used to blow up at 6800 now does not. No faster, right?
 
Re Jim's post:

Absolutely, the fast guys will still win, same guys for the same reasons. For all the right reasons, mostly.

And I am very unlikely to ever be on the podium at the runoffs due to age and budget.

But - I can also assure you that I find pad fade to be a very unpleasant experience on the race track, especially when running good brake parts. And I'm pretty sure that I'm not alone in this opinion, thus pretty sure that "programmed in pad fade" is not a selling point for Prod. Ergo, Prod will be a healthier class, longer, if we get rid of "inadequate brakes".

Real men can undoubtedly drive around it. I've mostly learned to (haven't rear ended anyone in quite a few years) and Fangio, Hawthorne, Hill, etc certainly did in the 1950s. But I'll go out on a limb and postulate that if you want to have a healthy, non-vintage race class in 2021 it had better be possible to install 100% non fadeable brakes.
 
I’m pretty sure what Jim said, or didn’t say, was that the disparity will be greater.

Was it the Mayan calendar that said, “in 2021 there shall be fade free brakes in Prod”?
And in 2022, ABS?
2023, Traction control?
2024, Yaw control?
2025, Stay at home and play on your simulator?

Or was that on the back of the Ten Commandments?
I never can remember.
 
Tom, this was one of the last settled "points" of this whole proposal. From the survey response, when combined, the votes for "unrestricted" and "limited by wheel size" was the clear winner. (It was felt that it was safe to consider these responses together, because effectively they are the same, since the wheel restrictions aren't changing. In hindsight, they should've been combined into one singular response option.) But yes I too absolutely worried about the "what if", and if we should try to take some sort of measure to save us from ourselves, and try to limit people from trying to spend ridiculous time and money to get some very minuscule amount of perceived extra gain. One possible "solution" that was discussed a lot was to mandate a max rotor size per max wheel size. Say something like 250mm max for 13" wheels, 300mm max for 15" wheels, and 350mm max for anything bigger than 15". There was two problems with this though. (1) One of the major points to all of this was to give people more options, and (2) trying to control what any singular person may want to spend on this stupid hobby is an even stupider exercise. So it was decided to just leave the rotor option open to whatever a person wants to put inside their wheel. If a person wants to spend absolutely ridiculous money to try and get 5mm more rotor diameter than their competitor, who bought all readily available, off the shelf, affordable items, so be it. You, or anyone else, is not going to keep "that guy" from spending money and trying to do dumb stuff like that. But any attempt that you make to try to do that, is just going to limit everyone else's options, make our rulebook bigger and more involved, and make tech an even bigger pain in the butt. You have to admit, the difference in performance potential between these two options is incredibly tiny.

To your proposal, as the committee researched the idea of limiting brake diameter by class (or even weight), it was found to just not be possible. There's just too large of a range of wheel sizes and weights in any of our classes to make one fixed rule like that for everyone feasible, and would've created some serious "winners" and "losers". Unless you want to open up wheel sizes, which is a whole other can of worms. As I said above, when you look at what pretty much any car has for stock brakes, and how much larger they could possibly go within their stock wheel limitation, the percentage "gains" are all very similar.
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Hey Kevin, thanks for the further explanation. It makes sense. I'm sure this package took many hours on many meetings to develop and create consensus. As you know, I always worry about making large changes like this because I believe the stability of the rules has kept participation strong...there is not a moving target in Prod. That said, some evolution is sometimes wise and if it isn't done too frequently or really poorly, then it could actually work in Prod's favor in terms of participation. This one seems like it will go well in that respect, and it seems popular.
 
Thanks Prod Board for modernizing the brake rules. This will help grow the class and bring in newer cars with newer drivers.
 
With all due respect to Jim and Les, ad hominem attacks based on "seniority" are not a good look for Prod. A perceived unfriendliness to beginners, outsiders or younger people will hurt the category in the long run if not sooner.

I've asked people in the past if they'd considered Prod, and the response a couple of times was basically "Hell no, I looked at the forum". Really!

To be clear, that was the fault of others, long gone, but the tone of this forum is indeed noticed.
 
Aaron Johnson":2p1nrz7h said:
Legal now. Engine management is free.
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Holy S***!
You're saying the Mayas were right?




I've been looking all over my Zenith-Strombergs for the TC setting.
Only thing that seems to make a difference is the string that goes from the butterfly shaft to the go pedal.
 
A spridget has traction control, it's called a 100hp motor. And I guess 90 ft/lbs torque counts as yaw control, who knew that 1960 tech = 2020 advancements.
 
mmacquee":1xhw689g said:
A spridget has traction control, it's called a 100hp motor. And I guess 90 ft/lbs torque counts as yaw control, who knew that 1960 tech = 2020 advancements.
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Apparently the Mayans, which you have to admit is impressive! :)
 
Al Seim":2vvmfo10 said:
With all due respect to Jim and Les, ad hominem attacks based on "seniority" are not a good look for Prod. A perceived unfriendliness to beginners, outsiders or younger people will hurt the category in the long run if not sooner.

I've asked people in the past if they'd considered Prod, and the response a couple of times was basically "Hell no, I looked at the forum". Really!

To be clear, that was the fault of others, long gone, but the tone of this forum is indeed noticed.
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That’s fine but I have learned that you need to have thick skin in life and if you can’t handle some harmless joking then be prepared to always find somewhere to hide and pull the covers over your head.
 
Al, yes and when you post like you are a competitor maybe once in a while it needs to be said you are not. I ran prod cars from 1975 until 2008 and crewed or owned over 40 cars that ran prod. My question to Brett was serious, when is the last race he ran a prod car. I was on the Prod Ad Hoc Committee for many years and led the way in limited prep. I believe every other person who posts on here races or has raced a pro car. Al, do you know what business Brett is in? Do you know when he last raced a prod car? Don't see how this can be viewed other than what it really said. There's no seniority here. Tonight, I just finished my 5th race weekend in the past 6. Not ready yet to retire, Brett. And it sure won't be in Florida if I ever do.
 
Thats great experience Jim, should help nicely. Feel free to ride on over here and help me get the two engines built, two transmissions assembled, the wiring harness built, the chassis fab finished up, the suspension component construction built, the body work done and then some paint.
 
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