LP Connecting Rod Discussion

John, if you hate creating confusion then you should also point out that it is the longer stroke of the crank that makes more torque. That typically requires a longer rod but the rod is not the item that makes more torque. It just fills in the extra space needed to connect the crank to the piston. Not that this has anything to do with Production because we can't stroke an engine.
 
Aside from lubrication issues or fastener failure, rods almost always fail in tension, during the "snatch back" of the piston mass at the top of the stroke. (Another argument for lightening pistons)

Very unusual for a rod to fail in compression unless bent first; like from trying to start against a hydro-locked engine, or detonation at start-up from greatly advanced ignition. I've seen a cranking starter totally stall from start-up detonation. Not uncommon on early crank fire ignition systems.

Important to have some form of timing retardation for start-up, to avoid such detonation.

RJS
 
So,if enough people complain about rod failure and they get to use aftermarket rods what happens when people start complaining about broken cranks, then failed oil systems, and so on, and so on. I'm just saying.
 
So,if enough people complain about rod failure and they get to use aftermarket rods what happens when people start complaining about broken cranks, then failed oil systems, and so on, and so on. I'm just saying.

Rockers please.
 
Tom Feller":2q2yk7b2 said:
So,if enough people complain about rod failure and they get to use aftermarket rods what happens when people start complaining about broken cranks, then failed oil systems, and so on, and so on. I'm just saying.

Rockers please.

Ya, I guess that one hits a little close to home, huh?

For me, how about a suspension design in the 20th century....and an 8 port head. Oh well.

Dayle
 
Sorry for the silence guys, been on vacation at the coast for a few days. In no particular order here are a few responses to earlier questions:
1. Any competitor who has ever heard my car you knows it is definitely not a high rev motor. An unported 9.5 to one motor with stock valves and limited lift might rev to 7200. My best ventilated motor had 12 to one and made peak hp at 7100 rpm and torque at 5300. Not willing to blow up another high $ motor this season I decided to put a bone stock crate motor in the car and get in my 4 races. First 2 went good (2nd and 4th). Qualified 2nd and 3rd for the last 2 but coasting onto pit road after qualifying for the 4th race the engine just exploded, you guessed it, big hole in side of motor, remainder of rod spins freely on crank journal, piston at top. This 9.5 to one motor never saw over 6800 RPM and the rods were bone stock but the results were the same as my seriously prepped 7,200 rpm 12 to one Runoffs motors.
2. The modern engines I build were mass produced between 1968 and 1977. Having been out of production for 35 to 40 years, new stock rods are not available.
3. I didn’t choose to race these motors in HP. After a decade in GP (datsun) and IT (corolla) I spent years 11 thru 21 as a full prep FP and GP field filler tin-top chasing mostly British full prep cars. After lots of hard work and $ I had one of the fastest GP cars in the country, winning 2 Southeast Div National Championships and putting the car on the second row at the Runoffs. After the club killed my class I had to choose between FP where I needed to gain 10 seconds a lap or HP where I lost 30 horsepower but slowed down only 4 seconds. Had I known the stock rods didn’t hold up I wouldn’t have decided for H but I had 2 SARRC Championships with 9 to one stock Corolla motors and never lost one.
4. My request is not just for my engine. I requested dimensionally stock aftermarket steel rods for any HP car because I believe it is fair to all. You aren’t forced to buy them. But if you think having the market cornered on new stock rods for your magic widget motor gives you a competitive advantage your posterior is showing.
5. Dimensionally equal stronger rods do not make faster revving or more powerful engines – period. I can however buy a new set off ebay for $305.00, clean them off and go racing. With stock rods I have to buy several old motors to find a whole set, weigh them to find 4 that are petty close, get them magnafluxed or x-rayed, change the bolts, get them rem’d,cryo’s and sized and go racing. Which process do you think is cheaper? Oh, BTW after 4 races on these stock rods be prepared to rinse and repeat the process or loose another costly motor.
6. The other modern LP motors Ron is thinking about do come with stronger often times forged rods and will likely never need aftermarket rods. Sooner or later the rest of you will (unless you are the guy I referred to in 4 above).
Personally I have at least 3 other alternatives to choose from that don’t have anything to do with this site. My twins are finishing Pharmacy School this year so health and wealth willing, I will race next year - somewhere.
Thanks,
Keith
 
Keith, these British car guys are not going to give an inch. When dinosaurs roamed the earth, these guys had to change rods ever other race and bearings ever race. And then cranks every 4rth race. I got this from a guy I've been working with for several years. He owns a TR4. And raced back when the car was new. They are stuck in time. And they feel everyone that races prod should feel the pain they went thru. Its kind of demented, but like I said, its still 1950 for them. Change classes while you still have some money.
Chris
 
Keith Church":2zmifqxw said:
..... This 9.5 to one motor never saw over 6800 RPM
Did you consider getting a new tach? :D

Seriously though, if they are indeed breaking at 6800 you need some help. Is anyone else running this engine with similar problems? Why did you ask for aftermarket rods for all HP cars? If you can prove your case for your car it might be easier to get them allowed for your motor only. What compression ratio would you be willing to live with if you got aftermarket rods?
 
What about enforcing an RPM limit for limited prep cars to go along with allowing aftermarket forged rods? You could either allow aftermarket rods universally for LP cars and give sort of formula for RPM limit, or limit cars on their spec line. I'll bet Keith could live with forged rods and a 7000 RPM limit. His competitiveness wouldn't change and his motors wouldn't fail. Win-Win.

Just in general I think that allowing aftermarket rods is a good way to go to give people the option if they need it. I would never do it in a VW LP motor, but other engines seem to need it to avoid engine failure, and that is what we are trying to achieve with LP motors anyway.
 
The internals should not be the rev limiter ,IMHO. (I am new at prod so bear with me,)
The LP rules have stock throttle bodies or carbs sizes of some sort. That , along with the cam size should be the power limter/rev limit.
If the weights are close to stock rods, the engine will make about the same power, and maybe run for 40hrs . If the rods are limiting the REVs to 6000 or less, the rods take this car out of the running,parking it., Just like people, dead cars dont pay.
Please enlighten me as to how this will ruin the class? Thanks,MM
 
I've never heard a particularly good explanation of why, when the small-bore limited prep classifications were rolled out, there was such a major departure from the philosophy that was used to class the initial EP limited prep cars such as the 240Z (limitations on suspension, head prep, cam and compression only, but with alternate crank, rods, rockers etc. still allowed). When small bore limited prep was proposed, and was being worked on behind the scenes, I was under the impression that a similar approach was being used by the CB at the time, and was all for it. However, when small bore limited prep was rolled out as a bunch of "new classifications", surprise!, a new philosophy!, and a new de-facto rules set, with effectively no member input. By then there were dozens of new classifications in place, and it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle. In my opinion, the classification specs for cars like the 240Z are superior to those used for the small bore limited prep cars and later EP limited prep cars. The combination of performance limitation by airflow, together with robust mechanical components being allowed, gives what I consider to be an appropriate level of compromise between performance and reliability for club racing.
 
Keith, these British car guys are not going to give an inch. When dinosaurs roamed the earth, these guys had to change rods ever other race and bearings ever race. And then cranks every 4rth race. I got this from a guy I've been working with for several years. He owns a TR4. And raced back when the car was new. They are stuck in time. And they feel everyone that races prod should feel the pain they went thru. Its kind of demented, but like I said, its still 1950 for them. Change classes while you still have some money.
Chris

Chris, what class do you run? I think you're way off base here and I'll explain why. Most of the people posting here chose to go the level 2 route with their dinosaur cars because we don't want to blow up engines all the time to be competitive. We don't want to invest in rods if we don't have to and we do not want to face the unintended consequences of allowing cars that breathe to have free rods.

We rev to lower rpms and the rods live. That's because our engines don't make power at rod-breaking RPMs. Drivers in some cars zing to 9k and complain that rods fail...well no sh!t. Should the answer continue to be to reduce/not reduce the rev limit at the drivers' discretion/risk or should the alternative be to allow aftermarket rods for all L2 cars? My car will lose about 100 grams per rod by switching to Carillos. I would need to do that to stay "fully developed" even if my rev limit stays the same due to airflow restriction.

The idea of policing the mass of the rod adds unwanted complexity to tech plus too much stock rod data to be collected.

Aftermarket rods WILL allow more power to be made for those cars that will be enabled to rev higher (cars that breathe well), as Al indicated. After rods are allowed, cranks (or something else on the car du jour) will fail and then we will be having this same discussion about cranks. The bottom line is that people will rev past the limit in order to win if the engine will make power. Rods will just raise that limit.

I do not disagree that the ultimate solution may be that we allow free rotating assemblies but restrict cam, porting, CR, and inlet. If that is the case, I don't think that bodes well for the folks that want rules stability.
 
What a contradiction: the SCCA is concerned about reduced participation, but clings to rule sets that DISCOURAGE continued participation.

RJS
 
It is very difficult to predict what will discourage or encourage participation. G Production is a good example of that. LP cars were brought in to improve participation numbers. Sounded like a good idea. Unfortunately, they were not competitive in GP with the initial rules set in place for them. One car in particular, the 510, was allowed to open the chokes to help the disadvantage. With the increased air flow and continued development they quickly became the dominant car. This discouraged the old cars from participating and the GP numbers continued to drop. Then some of the old GP cars were moved to HP because they were no longer competitive in GP and HP needed some help. Unfortunately, the new LP cars in GP did not multiply and GP numbers became so low that it became non-class.

A similar thing is happening in HP with all the old 948 Spridgets dropping out of HP because of the change in the level of competition with the "new" cars coming in. So far HP is surviving because enough of these "new" cars are carrying it along. I hope it continues to enjoy decent participation numbers.

It is pretty easy to come up with ideas to encourage participation, the trick it to get the ideas to work.

Right now, Production participation numbers are respectable. We need to make sure this improves or at least does not dwindle.
 
R. J. Sorensen":6lcb315a said:
What a contradiction: the SCCA is concerned about reduced participation, but clings to rule sets that DISCOURAGE continued participation.
RJS
It will certainly discourage participation from Keith, but for everyone that will benefit from a change in rules, there are at least that many that will quit due to instability and creep. I know when we discussed bringing back G on another thread, the most vocal antagonists were those that were tired of being jerked around by rule changes. Some weren't even willing to add or remove weight, which for me doesn't even move the needle.

So, if the Toyota is indeed in need of aftermarket rods, and I have no way of evaluating this need other than what Keith has presented, how does he get rods just for his car so we can keep one more active participant and worthy competitor?
 
Been reading this thread with casual rule interest. Don't know stink about these motors. Did Sam Neave of L.A.N. have the same/similar issues with rods in the Marlowe car.

2007 Runoffs G champon

1 21 Jay Marlowe /Hendersonville, NC/SE/CCar Toyota/TRD/Goodyear/LNA Enterprises 72 Toyota Corolla 11 1:50.531
 
The question is; if rods are open, do we have a net gain or loss.
Do we all have to buy rods ? to gain the 100rpm? MY VW has stock rods and maybe even stock bolts at this point. Revs to about 7300.. The cam/ intake package is all in at that point.
Will the 1275 kick my ass with good rods? maybe. Will it show up with good rods or stay home with crap.
More cars = good, broken cars= bad, IMHO.
Is this a big rule creep? maybe.
Should it be for specific cars? maybe.
 
Did Sam Neave of L.A.N. have the same/similar issues with rods in the Marlowe car.
Dave, I could have called you on the phone and answered this... but I thought I'd humiliate you in public 8) That's just the kind of guy I am. Marlow's car was Prep 1 (full prep). He could and probably did run aftermarket rods.

Have fun! :p
 
Mark Meller":3a8uliv7 said:
Did Sam Neave of L.A.N. have the same/similar issues with rods in the Marlowe car.
Dave, I could have called you on the phone and answered this... but I thought I'd humiliate you in public 8) That's just the kind of guy I am. Marlow's car was Prep 1 (full prep). He could and probably did run aftermarket rods.

Have fun! :p

We know from Keith's post that a GP Toyota had good rods, but moving down to H meant going back to stock ones. I think the question was did Sam not make the move because he did not want to go back to stock rods? :wink:
 
Mark Meller":1efhcuco said:
Did Sam Neave of L.A.N. have the same/similar issues with rods in the Marlowe car.
Dave, I could have called you on the phone and answered this... but I thought I'd humiliate you in public 8) That's just the kind of guy I am. Marlow's car was Prep 1 (full prep). He could and probably did run aftermarket rods.

Have fun! :p

Mark, I can live with that. I do remember that the Marlow car motor did have issues at Topeka. Being that your younger :wink: than me I'm sure you'll remember the motor issue without calling Sam.
 
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