Hp and 2 litre ITB cars

P

Protech Racing

Well-known member
Seems as tho the bigger engined ITB cars are continually excluded from HP.
All of the Prod L2 cars all have compression limits and cam limits to balance the VE. Please explain why the 2 ltre engines cant run at 11/1 compression and .425 valve lift and fit in ?
FWIW we have a listing for a Volvo 142 with a 1.8 engine. Did that ever come in the car?

IMHO, Cars we need to include in HP at L2 ; 142 Volvo, BMW 320 , 914 pork, . With stock throttle body and 11/1 compression/.425 lift . they should not destroy the class and may add some cars .
 
All are already in F, as a 2L motor should be. There is no replacement for displacement. A 2L in H would indeed kill the class.

If they're noncompetitive in L2 trim in F, mess around with weight and maybe a 1/2 point of compression there vs. relegating to H.
 
Stiner0931":tux53zvn said:
All are already in F, as a 2L motor should be. There is no replacement for displacement. A 2L in H would indeed kill the class.

If they're noncompetitive in L2 trim in F, mess around with weight and maybe a 1/2 point of compression there vs. relegating to H.
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Yes there is it’s called AIR which the 914 and the Volvo can’t get with the stock throttle body
 
Seriously? A stock 914 2.0 engine from Porsche made 95fwhp, back in the 70s with some very poor induction setup. There is no way you are going to get a 2.0 with 10:1 compression and .425 cam lift to make much more than 120whp. That puts it right in line with a Datsun 510 with a LP engine. That is way too slow for FP. I would be surprised if you can make 180+whp required to be competitive in FP with the current regs, but I am not going to try. My 914 is going to be a street car with a 3.3 Suby flat six.

No the 2.0 isn't some sort of "class killer". If I remember right, my 914 back in the day did 118whp with a .500in cam, 9:1 compression, ported heads, 2mm over bore, etc exhaust system was garbage, but I didn't know much better at 20 years old. That was breathing through two 44IDFs with 36mm chokes. None of that is legal in FP nor would it be legal in HP. The 1.8 engine 914 is allowed at 2100lbs, why not let the 2.0 run at 2300lbs?

Kinda like the discussion a while about about the S12 Nissan 200SX. That was a 2.0 3 valve engine that from the factory made 110hp, out of a HUGE 2.0. That car should fit in HP just fine, but the 2.0 is a big scary number now. If you breathed on that engine, while still forcing it to breath through the stock induction system, maybe 10:1, .450 cam lift, no porting, that engine might get into the 150whp range. At 2300lbs or even ITB weight it won't be an overdog. But there is no way it can be competitive in FP without level 1 motor prep or at least alternate carbs instead of the OE FI.

What did Loshak's CRX make? 155whp?

There are a bunch of cars from the late 70s and early 80s that could fit well in HP, but gotta find someone crazy enough to do the leg work.
 
Jerry Lee Oleson":184pcptr said:
Why would someone looking at a new HP build not just go out and get a Toyota Yaris, it's a proven winner ?
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A. Doing things the easy way is not consistent with class philosophy.

B. Even in Prod trim it still looks like a B Spec car.

:)
 
Jerry Lee Oleson":38furz6q said:
Why would someone looking at a new HP build not just go out and get a Toyota Yaris, it's a proven winner ?
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Because Prod- and especially HP is a world of old, quirky cars nobody else wants to race. So instead of putting them in junkyards and moving on with life, cranky old men haul a half dozen rust buckets from a the back lot of that weird friend that never grew out of the 70s, and then try to find a way to make them go fast, all the while complaining about money and competitiveness when they have a car that can barely finish a 30 min race.
.....My obviously not-so-humble opinion.....
 
That's super funny, but you could also look at it this way.

HP is a class that has strong participation, as do all prod classes, has great parity between a broad range of car brands, ages and chassis types, and consistently delivers an enjoyable race at big events.

Yaris is a proven winner
Mazda 2 has become pretty competitive
Spitfire is very very (very) fast
Spridget is a proven front runner year after year
L1 Datsun is actually faster than everything else, but no one is noticing
A plethora of Hondas can compete - and owned the VIR podium
4 different VW models are competitive (and with their "strong" motor can nearly hang in draft with Datsun and Spitfire)

It's a great time to be racing in this class, and a ton of fun. (when we aren't getting knocked out by "faster" cars)

We just don't get respect because no one has figured out how to put Miatas in the class.

To the topic at hand, we do need to be careful about making significant changes to the class based on the wants of folks not actually racing here. That's not to say that "heads should asplode" if a new idea is suggested, but that we should tread a little lightly, and nurture all the good that we do have. One might suggest that some carefully researched spec line allowances to make 2 liter cars competitive in F might be a better approach. Air flow is the issue, find a bolt on alternate manifold, or throttle body. If that over shoots performance, manage it with weight, compression, cam lift and restrictors.
 
I agree 100% with Chris - well said!

Prod in general as a category, and H in particular as a class, are great places to play.

We have something of a culture of "whining" aka "lobbying for balance of performance" but overall it is a great group of folks and a cool mix of old and new which I think is unique in all of road racing.
 
Another upside is the LBCs keep mosquitoes away from the corner stations and helps the local parts stores rotate their inventory of 50w oil!
(This is coming from the guy who shops for oil in the weedwhacker section of Home Depot..)
Happy Friday, y'all. :)
 
We asked for the ITB Volvo to go into HP years ago and got the stupid 1.8 combo that didn't exist in this country. Nobody fell for it. Even our best FP 140 ( 11.0 to 1, .450 lift )could only muster a 1:19 or so at VIR on a perfect day. A stock B20e has 10.5 to 1 and .425 lift. HP would be a good place for the 40 or so folks that still have those cars to run and might bring in a few more. Everybody is skeerd of Volvos!
 
2 Liter! I have been trying to get a 1776cc 2 valve SOHC 101hp car (BMW 318i) in HP for years. Totally uncompetitive in FP, so it sits in the garage.
 
we have 5 ports and two tiny carbs, and they won't give us 12:1? in addition to the club trying to drive us out why does everyone else want to crap on us? Have had some experiences with Volvos running F, they don't see us and regard our bodywork as fungible assets. Yes, I am old, and remember the days of 40 car H/G fields filled with spridgets and spits, but we're not dead yet!
 
mmacquee":1sahufh2 said:
we have 5 ports and two tiny carbs, and they won't give us 12:1? in addition to the club trying to drive us out why does everyone else want to crap on us? Have had some experiences with Volvos running F, they don't see us and regard our bodywork as fungible assets. Yes, I am old, and remember the days of 40 car H/G fields filled with spridgets and spits, but we're not dead yet!
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This is a terrible way for anyone in any of our classes to end up feeling. Yes it is harder to see a smaller car, but we need to.

I feel like in some areas we see a good collective camaraderie and culture, and in others it’s a group of individuals on track. We are pretty fortunate in CenDiv to have, in my opinion a strong class culture in H, and a decent category culture in Prod with a few bumpy moments to be sure.

There is no easy answer to establishing a desirable dynamic, but the obvious first step is, on some level, to know each other as a person. The Olsen brothers actually do a great job of fostering the right kind of culture with the way they create a nice forum to get together at the track. Dayle Frame has done a great job of this with the category at runoffs events. Chuck and Tammie Mathis did the same for VW racers at runoffs past. Obviously it’s hard to do in a c19 world, but this is what sets our group apart from the ones with higher percentages of arrive and drive and rental drivers.

I know not everyone falls into the “social media” trap, but Facebook does have some groups that make it easier to get to know one another, and support those that need it to get going in racing. The SCCA Production Racers group that Jesse Prather started last year is a more engaging platform that can support many of the conversations held here, the SCCA H Production Racers group that Jason Stone started does the same at a class specific level.

Me personally, I like what forums used to be, because they are structured better, and theoretically remain more consistent over time, but with FB no one needs to set up, manage, maintain or pay for the infrastructure supporting the group like some great people do for us here.

I’d highly recommend that we all take a little time to find our racing communities on social media and join them. Interact, share progress, share challenges, teach newcomers, get to know the faces and names of the racers you are on track with. The SCCA is the most legitimate club racing organization on the continent, but one of its strongest attributes is the community that makes it up. We can strengthen that and improve our racing experience simply by fostering and reinforcing the community we race in. What we do here helps, but honestly it’s not going to live forever, and we get very little ability to get to know each other in this format due to its “transactional” interaction style.

Sorry for derailing the gnashing of teeth and head asploding related to big block HP cars and delicate long developed small bore foundations of the class. Back to your regularly scheduled “Prod Foruming”.
 
mmacquee":1v8w9qgl said:
we have 5 ports and two tiny carbs, and they won't give us 12:1? in addition to the club trying to drive us out why does everyone else want to crap on us? Have had some experiences with Volvos running F, they don't see us and regard our bodywork as fungible assets. Yes, I am old, and remember the days of 40 car H/G fields filled with spridgets and spits, but we're not dead yet!
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Well I’m sorry you had issues with a Volvo, but while I was running my Volvo in FP here in the SE I got run over numerous times by more than one spridget
 
Les, they didn't run over you. They just saw this good looking Swedish hunk of metal out on the race track and just couldn't resist getting close.

BTW Sam, if you turned a 1:17 with that tank at VIR as you said, I was racing the wrong car. And I am old, but I still don't remember the days of 40 car BLMC fields. I even brought 5 or 6 with me to the track and so did Tony Drum and we still only had 20 or so. But, like the saying goes, the older we get the faster we went. I need to get Eric to update the track records since I set two more new ones just last week.

Personally, I think it's easier and more fun for drivers to speed up a 2 liter car to fit in FP than to choke it down for HP. No one is ever happy going slow in a car they think should go faster.

See some the top SEDiv next weekend at Roebing Road for the SIC. Even in a year like this has been, we have nearly a 140 entries. Thanks SEDiv drivers.
 
Mike.. All this talk is fine but so far I haven't seen any of the proposed cars for HP that can out run the VWs we have running in the SE division. The few we have running in Central Florida usually wind up finishing with the FP cars. Me, I'm tired of being told we have everything we need to win in HP so going to keep working on our Vintage car.

By the way, remember the Rose's Volvo 1800/ES that took year end honors in both E and F in the early 2000s? 226 hp at the wheels and two good drivers.

Bob
 
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