Equalization Philosophy

[hpmowog]

Bracket racing isn't even racing. More like high speed TSD Rally. I am shocked anyone would even bring it up in a group of real racers

Curtis,

It is real racing, but it's a very different mindset. Instead of looking at it in terms of class or season, it's basically distilled down to looking at racing on a single race basis, where all you're thinking about is beating the guy closest to you for that race and that race only. I've been in bracket races where there were 10 cars running lap times within 1.5 seconds of each other. In other words, a lot closer racing than most SCCA races. I don't think it's at all appropriate for a national class, as it discounts car prep, but for regional racing, it's not a bad approach.

 

[EPrill]

I realize that one of the fun things to do on Bulletin Boards is to propose some pretty progressive concepts, but I want to remind everything of a couple of facts from 2011. I'm not saying that our system in production "ain't broke" because there's always room for improvement and if we have a large group of people staying away we need to see if we can address this.

However, Production is strong within the current program based on its participation numbers both throughout the season and at the Runoffs. Note that the below do not include Spec classes (SM, SRF, FM, FE) or American Sedan (not sure where it fits):

2011 National Participation Number Category average car counts per class:

1. Super Touring STU/STO (surprise!): 4.6 (yes, I realize these numbers are supported by SM's running in STU but the same cars running in STU could run production as well but are not.)

2. Production (EP/FP/HP): 4.4
3. Formula (FV, FF, F5, FC, FA, FB): 4.1
4. GT (GT1/2/3/L): 2.8
5. Touring (T1/2/3): 2.6
6. SR (CSR/DSR/S2): 2.3
7. SS (SSB/C): 2.0

Runoffs Participation Category average Car counts per class:
1. Production (EP/FP/HP): 26.3
2. Formula (FV, FF, F5, FC, FA, FB): 20.5
3. Touring (T1/2/3): 17.7
4. Super Touring STU/STO: 14.5
5. SS (SSB/SSC): 14
6. GT (GT1/2/3/L): 13
7: SR (CSR/DSR/S2): 12.7

I just want to make sure that before we go and talk about blowing our rule set up we need to realize that we're not doing to bad compared to the other categories. I'm all for making things better but let's not sabotage our category either.

 

[Thom Asay]

Curtis, before you judge me as a real racer, I'll tell you that I'm not, I'm just a guy that likes to drive fast on the track with other fast drivers. But in reality, bracket racing is just what is being asked for here. When racers ask for SPEC rules, thats just the mechanical or technical way of getting different cars to run the same times. "Bracket road racing" is looking at this from the back side, set the time and let the mech. and tech. side be free.
We all know how good spec rules work. Who hasn't heard a spec driver say, "He must be cheating cause I'm cheating and he's faster than me!"
With my proposal you can't bent the clock, there are no grey areas with timing.

Eric, I agree that prod racing is strong, but prod racing is where our club has it's roots and it needs to be healthy strong.
We can't all be at the Big Board Table, but we can R&D progressive concepts here. Thanks.
Thom

 

[EPrill]

Eric, I agree that prod racing is strong, but prod racing is where our club has it's roots and it needs to be healthy strong.
We can't all be at the Big Board Table, but we can R&D progressive concepts here. Thanks.
Thom

Thom I agree that this is a good place for the R&D. Just want to provide some additional data.

Also, and I don't think any of them would dispute this, but the Big Board and the CRB definitely recognizes the strength of Prod and does not want to do anything to harm that. Before anyone jumps in and brings up GP none (or very very few) of the current board were serving in that same capacity back then.

 

[Thom Asay]

I hear you Eric and I understand.
On the other hand , Al did ask for " philosophy ".
And I'm neither mad or upset about GP, I prefer HP now, but GP was where I was when all this madness started in 1981.

 

[Curtis]

Maybe I have a different perception of what "bracket racing is" I was thinking about what they do at the local drag strip where you are only trying to get to for example 12.0 seconds but disqualified at 11.9999. Or what a vintage organization used to do years ago with 3 or so cars spread out on the track trying to do something similar....run multiple laps as close to chosen bracket bottom without going under. If this fits what you guys are talking about then I stand by my statement - high speed tsd, not racing. If you are talking about something completely different, I'll open my mind and listen.

 

[hpmowog]

Maybe I have a different perception of what "bracket racing is" I was thinking about what they do at the local drag strip where you are only trying to get to for example 12.0 seconds but disqualified at 11.9999. Or what a vintage organization used to do years ago with 3 or so cars spread out on the track trying to do something similar....run multiple laps as close to chosen bracket bottom without going under. If this fits what you guys are talking about then I stand by my statement - high speed tsd, not racing. If you are talking about something completely different, I'll open my mind and listen.

No, it's not like that at all. The "brackets" are qualifying time brackets (e.g. 1:23 to 1:27), that set what "class" you run in on a given day. When the green flag drops, it's still regular old wheel to wheel racing. However, if you turn a race lap under the bracket time (e.g. 1:22.9), you break out and are DQ'd (note: no onboard timing devices allowed). If you think you're faster than the bracket that your qualifying time would put you in, you can choose to run in the next faster bracket. In reality, it's not much different than running in a typical SCCA regional "alphabet soup" group where you've got SS, IT, Prod, GT, ST, etc. all grouped together where you're likely to be racing against a car in a different class for overall position. I think COMMA has a run-what-you-brung group similar to this that you might be familiar with.

 

[Al Seim]

No, it's not like that at all. The "brackets" are qualifying time brackets (e.g. 1:23 to 1:27), that set what "class" you run in on a given day. When the green flag drops, it's still regular old wheel to wheel racing. However, if you turn a race lap under the bracket time (e.g. 1:22.9), you break out and are DQ'd (note: no onboard timing devices allowed). If you think you're faster than the bracket that your qualifying time would put you in, you can choose to run in the next faster bracket. In reality, it's not much different than running in a typical SCCA regional "alphabet soup" group where you've got SS, IT, Prod, GT, ST, etc. all grouped together where you're likely to be racing against a car in a different class for overall position. I think COMMA has a run-what-you-brung group similar to this that you might be familiar with.

How is that really different from bracket drag racing, taking reaction time out of it? Seems to me that if you run a string of 1:23.001s you're bound to win..

Or maybe it's just a way to group some similar cars together for high speed lapping, and nobody really cares about the results? Regardless, I think it's very unlikely that many SCCA Prod racers really want to move to that format.

I think that the goal of the Prod rules is that any car in the PCS, if prepped and raced "to full potential" should be competitive in class. Bracket racing seems more about consistency....

 

[hpmowog]

How is that really different from bracket drag racing, taking reaction time out of it? Seems to me that if you run a string of 1:23.001s you're bound to win..

Or maybe it's just a way to group some similar cars together for high speed lapping, and nobody really cares about the results? Regardless, I think it's very unlikely that many SCCA Prod racers really want to move to that format.

I think that the goal of the Prod rules is that any car in the PCS, if prepped and raced "to full potential" should be competitive in class. Bracket racing seems more about consistency....

I agree that it's not something that national prod racers would want to move to. The philosophy behind doing this in the case of our local track was to enable cars prepped to the rules of various organizations (SCCA, PCA, BMWCCA, NASA, etc.) to compete against each other relatively closely without having to come up with a whole new set of class prep rules or having 50 cars, each running in 50 separate single car classes. A catch all approach like this could potentially work for regional racing in areas like SWDIV, MWDIV or RMDIV where the regionals aren't terribly well attended and there are a lot of 1 or 2 car classes. It makes for closer, more fun racing than being in a single car class, or in a two or three car class with a 12 second lap time spread which is often the case for prod cars at regional races. For nationals, or areas with healthy regional series like MARRS or SARRC, it wouldn't make much sense.

It does reward consistency, but in reality, variations in weather conditions, tire wear etc., make it a crap shoot from race to race.

BTW, ever try running a consistent string of 1:23.001's with 2 or 3 other cars on your ass trying to pass you lap after lap, without accidentally turning a 1:22.999? :wink:

 

[Al Seim]

[BTW, ever try running a consistent string of 1:23.001's with 2 or 3 other cars on your ass trying to pass you lap after lap, without accidentally turning a 1:22.999? :wink:

I don't think that it would be easy at all, just like I'm sure I'd be slaughtered by a group of serious bracket drag racers. Or for that matter a group of serious TSD rallyists.

More power to those who create and enjoy any type of autosport competition, OTOH I don't see this as offering much to improve SCCA Production class rules per se.

Intent of the thread was to look at possible issues of "Runoffs track" vs "rest of tracks" competition equalization, where there may be issues of "runoffs fairness" vs "overall fairness" and its possible effects on participation.

Somehow I feel that bracket racing is not the answer to this issue - though it may well be a great local option for some groups.

 

[hpmowog]

Al,

I agree with you that bracket racing is not the solution to the issues at hand with Prod racing (performance differences at Road America), and I've stated several times now that it wouldn't be appropriate for national racing. As probably the only person on this board who has actually done bracket road racing, I thought I'd add some first hand perspective to the thread. I was primarily responding to Curtis' statement that it wasn't "real racing". It's just another form of club racing, no more, no less. Comparisons to TSD rally or bracket drag racing are not really applicable. It's really more like being at a regional and having a close "race" between say an FP car and a GTL car. Meaningless in the big scheme of things other than for bragging rights, but a race nonetheless.

 

[James Rogerson]

We run a 'bracket race' monthly. Called an Australian Pursuit. Set a Q-time and slowest cars start first with staggered start based differential of lap time for 12lap race. If you think you can run perfect laps in slower traffic, especially those that have to be passed 4 times, come on down. I see money changing hands.

James -R

 

[cmarkos]

Used to do Australian Pursuit with another group at the end of each weekend. 5 laps and top three would get some kind of prize ( free track day, gift certificates to auto supply). Remember passing ITC car with 30 yards to go and then losing to AS Mustang by a bumper. Usually depended on where you caught traffic. Was a fun way to end weekend.

 

[Larry Frankenstein]

However, Production is strong within the current program based on its participation numbers both throughout the season and at the Runoffs. Note that the below do not include Spec classes (SM, SRF, FM, FE) or American Sedan (not sure where it fits):

2011 National Participation Number Category average car counts per class:

1. Super Touring STU/STO (surprise!): 4.6 (yes, I realize these numbers are supported by SM's running in STU but the same cars running in STU could run production as well but are not.)

Interesting info thank you. How does STU rate without the SM's?

Also, re "Production is strong . . .". Unfortunately the board does/did not eliminate classes based on how the Category is doing, but on how a single class does/did. That is if they follow their own rules in the first place.

L

 

[EPrill]

However, Production is strong within the current program based on its participation numbers both throughout the season and at the Runoffs. Note that the below do not include Spec classes (SM, SRF, FM, FE) or American Sedan (not sure where it fits):

2011 National Participation Number Category average car counts per class:

1. Super Touring STU/STO (surprise!): 4.6 (yes, I realize these numbers are supported by SM's running in STU but the same cars running in STU could run production as well but are not.)

Interesting info thank you. How does STU rate without the SM's?

Also, re "Production is strong . . .". Unfortunately the board does/did not eliminate classes based on how the Category is doing, but on how a single class does/did. That is if they follow their own rules in the first place.

L

Unfortunately since the Miata is eligible in STU (the car that finished 2nd at the Runoffs was a turbo Miata), it's tough to say what's a Spec Miata and what's something more prepared. This year's STU numbers will be much more easy to discern since any SMs running will be in STL. Of course, that makes STL's numbers difficult to evaluate...

 

[David Dewhurst]

Unfortunately since the Miata is eligible in STU (the car that finished 2nd at the Runoffs was a turbo Miata), it's tough to say what's a Spec Miata and what's something more prepared. This year's STU numbers will be much more easy to discern since any SMs running will be in STL. Of course, that makes STL's numbers difficult to evaluate...

I'll need to look again but with two or three minor at track changes the 1.6 Spec Miata could run if F production. :think: From the dark side :wink:

 

[EPrill]

Unfortunately since the Miata is eligible in STU (the car that finished 2nd at the Runoffs was a turbo Miata), it's tough to say what's a Spec Miata and what's something more prepared. This year's STU numbers will be much more easy to discern since any SMs running will be in STL. Of course, that makes STL's numbers difficult to evaluate...

I'll need to look again but with two or three minor at track changes the 1.6 Spec Miata could run if F production. :think: From the dark side :wink:

Two years ago we recruited an SM to run at MSR-Houston so we could have enough cars for contingency. As long as its got a fire system, I think it's good to go.

 

[Think Racing]

Unfortunately since the Miata is eligible in STU (the car that finished 2nd at the Runoffs was a turbo Miata), it's tough to say what's a Spec Miata and what's something more prepared. This year's STU numbers will be much more easy to discern since any SMs running will be in STL. Of course, that makes STL's numbers difficult to evaluate...

I'll need to look again but with two or three minor at track changes the 1.6 Spec Miata could run if F production. :think: From the dark side :wink:

Two years ago we recruited an SM to run at MSR-Houston so we could have enough cars for contingency. As long as its got a fire system, I think it's good to go.

There was a SM double dipping in FP last year in the one MARRS weekend I raced. It happens, but I know at the Summit Point there is a lot of disparity in lap times between the two. Four seconds a lap if you looked the two classes lap records.

 

[James Rogerson]

The thing most people overlook for SM to go to PROD is window clips and straps front & year. And like Eric said the fire system. On point with the windshield back glass is how outdated those rules are. They have ZERO relavence to modern cars.

James -R

 

[Steve Eckerich]

The thing most people overlook for SM to go to PROD is window clips and straps front & year. And like Eric said the fire system. On point with the windshield back glass is how outdated those rules are. They have ZERO relavence to modern cars.

James -R

Go back and read the rule again. Only replacement windows must have straps. Stock is still OK.