Bring Back G (H) Production

[Larry Frankenstein]

I was not actually looking for lap times... Was it displacement, prep level, what made a GP car a GP car VS an HP car?

It might be helpful if someone would post up what cars, and prep level, would be in which classes.

L

 

[JasonIsley99]

Jason,

Same limited prep and full prep rules as we have now. Engine displacement between HP and FP. Full prep 1.6 VW was in GP, Limited prep 1.6 VW was in HP. LImited prep 1.8 VW was in GP, full prep 1.8 VW was in FP.When GP ended some cars went up into FP and some came down into HP.

Gotcha. Sound reasonable enough... Way better than jumping from lp/HP to fp/FP. :shock:

 

[Mark Coffin]

I was not actually looking for lap times... Was it displacement, prep level, what made a GP car a GP car VS an HP car?

It might be helpful if someone would post up what cars, and prep level, would be in which classes.

L

Larry,

Start with a 2008 GCR/PCS. :wink: That would be where I would recommend the process begin.

Mark

 

[Mark Coffin]

Jason,

Same limited prep and full prep rules as we have now. Engine displacement between HP and FP. Full prep 1.6 VW was in GP, Limited prep 1.6 VW was in HP. LImited prep 1.8 VW was in GP, full prep 1.8 VW was in FP.When GP ended some cars went up into FP and some came down into HP.

Pretty much all the full prep cars that were in GP ended moving up to FP w/ comp adjustments. (Those worked so well only two guys are left in FP from GP: Bill Wessel and Chuck Mathis). So if you had a full prep GP car, you pretty much got hosed when GP was disbanded.

The limited prep GP cars were moved down to HP with adjustments (some smaller than others. :twisted: ).

Mark

 

[David Dewhurst]

Was it displacement, prep level, what made a GP car a GP car VS an HP car?

In H, G, F, it's nothing more or less than the length of SuperMan's cape. :wink:

 

[Larry Frankenstein]

It might be helpful if someone would post up what cars, and prep level, would be in which classes.

L

Larry,

Start with a 2008 GCR/PCS. :wink: That would be where I would recommend the process begin.

Mark

Or . . . post up a 2008 PCS for those of us who don't have one

Thank you,
L

 

[harvey]

Jason,

Same limited prep and full prep rules as we have now. Engine displacement between HP and FP. Full prep 1.6 VW was in GP, Limited prep 1.6 VW was in HP. LImited prep 1.8 VW was in GP, full prep 1.8 VW was in FP.When GP ended some cars went up into FP and some came down into HP.

Pretty much all the full prep cars that were in GP ended moving up to FP w/ comp adjustments. (Those worked so well only two guys are left in FP from GP: Bill Wessel and Chuck Mathis). So if you had a full prep GP car, you pretty much got hosed when GP was disbanded.

The limited prep GP cars were moved down to HP with adjustments (some smaller than others. :twisted: ).

Mark

Not all of the limited prep GP cars went to HP my Volvo just got totally wiped out with the only choice now being Full Prep in F.

 

[Mark Coffin]

Les,

I forgot about the Volvo. I guess the CRB just doesn't like Sweden.. :shock:

Mark

 

[Tom Feller]

Just my 2 cents, I dont think this would be a good idea for either class G or H. I dont think there would be enough cars that would magically come back out to play to make either class viable. I think it could back fire and kill off both classes.

In a perfect world, if you had a gurantee that every garaged G prod car would come back and every garaged H prod car would come back it would work, but I dont think that is possible in today's economy and culture of SCCA. I was just as pissed when they eliminated Gprod where my car was at, but if I remember correctly HP was struggling at the time too.

To me it makes more sense in making Hp stronger, I dont know exactly how but figure out how to make the garaged cars competitive in the current class they are in H or F. If that means moving some FP cars down to HP and vice verso so be it, I do not get a sense from the Club that they are willing to add to many classes right now with the numbers that are showing up at the track.

Barry's quote echoes my concern. We will create two weak classes because all the parked cars will not magically come back. People quit for many reasons. I haven't run a full schedule since 2008 because of life getting in the way...just an example.

Onto Barry's point about making HP stronger: We're currently attempting to hold the class back to the lowest powered (fully developed) car. That is considered to be the 948 Sprite. Almost all other cars currently in HP could be uncorked in some way to make them run faster and keep up with the current fast cars at RA. For example, my car is carrying about 120 lbs of ballast and has mild engine specs. Ron's 1275 is in the same boat. Most tin tops have mild specs and carry ballast. The 948 is maxed out and as light as it can get. It sounds harsh, but when can we stop holding the class to the 948? When we do, we can close the 10 second gap between F and H.

That said, ROAD AMERICA is part of the problem! A Spit or Spridget can dominate at certain tracks and on most tracks, they are competitive. Road America is an outlier track. If we optimize the cars to match up well at Road America, Spits and Spridgets will dominate everywhere else except other outlier power tracks.

 

[Larry Frankenstein]

Just my 2 cents, I dont think this would be a good idea for either class G or H. I dont think there would be enough cars that would magically come back out to play to make either class viable. I think it could back fire and kill off both classes.

Barry's quote echoes my concern. We will create two weak classes because all the parked cars will not magically come back. People quit for many reasons. I haven't run a full schedule since 2008 because of life getting in the way...just an example.

No one is saying they will all come out. There is no guarantee they will come out, but there is a lot less reason for them to come out if there isn’t a place for them to race.

A few questions to consider:
Are we (SCCA) better off with the cars parked or on the track?
Are cars that are classed competitively more likely to be raced than cars that are not competitive?
Are cars that are classed competitively more likely to be sold to someone who wants to race them vs. cars that are not competitive?

Point being, if the parked cars remain parked, or not built, they are of zero value to SCCA. Do nothing and they won’t come out, or they will go elsewhere (vintage). If they have a place to competitively race in SCCA the cars stand a better chance to generate interest, to be raced or sold to, someone who will race them with SCCA.

Larry

 

[Curtis]

Pretty much all the full prep cars that were in GP ended moving up to FP w/ comp adjustments. (Those worked so well only two guys are left in FP from GP: Bill Wessel and Chuck Mathis). So if you had a full prep GP car, you pretty much got hosed when GP was disbanded.

Mark

The first part of that is correct but nobody got hosed any worse than anybody else excepting maybe the Volvo of which there was only one. Also, It is only fair to mention that both the 510 and the VW are fairly classed in F

Fprod is now a full prep 1600 class for the older 2 valve cars exactly LIKE the 510 and the VW Wessel is not only running up front but he absolutely kills the Miatas on the straight away

Yes. I'm still pissed about how it happened too, and you guys can try to resurrect G
if you want it back, but I'm guessing that just one weekend getting your butt kicked in G by a 190hp 510 will send you running back to the current F or H classes. As much as I loved G there were just as many G cars, probably more, stuck between G and H 5 years ago as there are stuck between H and F now. It wasn't perfect then either

 

[bdw73]

Keith

I am not quitting because of this request, I dont have a problem with the idea, I am not sold on it being the right way to go especially if cars would have the option in staying in the current class, I think that would hurt G more than H

It is the constant moving target in the rules is why I am thinking of getting out of prod cars.

 

[Ron Bartell]

I am not quitting because of this request,........
It is the constant moving target in the rules is why I am thinking of getting out of prod cars.

Barry, if you had an uncompetitive car and the rules never changed, you would have an uncompetitive car for your entire racing career unless you changed cars. Would you really like the rules to be frozen? What does stability buy you if you are uncompetitive?

Looking at it with the forty year perspective that I have, the rules have always been a moving target ever since it was no longer a one-mark class. You either roll with it and try to change it, or you quit. I for one am glad that there are constant adjustments in the rules. It gives others a chance to be competitive.

That said, ROAD AMERICA is part of the problem! A Spit or Spridget can dominate at certain tracks and on most tracks, they are competitive. Road America is an outlier track. If we optimize the cars to match up well at Road America, Spits and Spridgets will dominate everywhere else except other outlier power tracks

Or.......we could recognize that the next three or four years at RA is an eternity for some people, and we could just split up the cars that do well there (former G cars with bigger motors) and the ones that don't (smaller motored H cars). Yes, the two classes will be less than two times the current H class, but it will also be more than the current H total. With no 2.5 rule we are given a free pass to make this happen without penalty. Let's do it!!

I would propose the following:
1) Reinstate G Production as a National class starting 1/1/2012 based on the 2008 GCR/PCS
2) Allow G cars to run in either H or G for the 2012 year with only one National championship in H for 2012
3) As of 2013 the G cars can only run in G, but there will be both an H and a G National Championship - Probably run together at RA
4) Monitor participation, and if the numbers in H fall below the 2.5 requirement (assuming that it is reinstated), combine H into G with a performance advantage given to the H cars to make them competitive. The 948 Spridget will be left behind at that point as there is nothing that can be done to speed it up.

 

[Rob]

Keith

It is the constant moving target in the rules is why I am thinking of getting out of prod cars.

I think that this sentiment is echoed by many in Prod and GT. Even if imperfect, if the rules that were established at the onset of GTL were still in place would there be more or fewer people running there? I guess that there couldn't be fewer because it would be gone but I think that many are aggravated with the constant "let's try this" approach before the results of the last "expirament" are even clear.

 

[Tom Feller]

With no 2.5 rule we are given a free pass to make this happen without penalty. Let's do it!!

Isn't it just suspended?

 

[Curtis]

G Production as a National class starting 1/1/2012 based on the 2008 GCR/PCS
2) Allow G cars to run in either H or G for the 2012 year with only one National championship in H for 2012
3) As of 2013 the G cars can only run in G, but there will be both an H and a G National Championship - Probably run together at RA

Ron,

I know you are well intended and only want the best for produciton racing, but I think you need to think this through, and then maybe through again.

Your suggesting in 2013, one year from now, forcing a 5 year old rule set that was very, very flawed 5 years ago, on the racers who have actually sucked it up, converted, and raced their "G" cars in H and F even if they want to stay in H and F. All in an effort to get a small bunch of racers back, that while justified in their hard feelings, have just sat on the sidelines and complained while others were working, converting, investing, and racing? You'd throw away what are currently the healthiest production classes in 2 decades to bring back some cars that belong in Fproduction anyway, and make it possible for a couple of guys to run 948s a few more years? I don't think anybody here wants that result.

I fantasize about a new Gproduction too, but it's gone, it's over, any effort to bring it back is as meddlesome as what happened when it was taken away. It would be more burdensome and unjust than the original elimination was. You'd just be driving 3 away for every one you got back again, and extending the uncertainty that keeps us patching up old cars instead of building new ones

 

[evanwebb]

Request sent a few days ago:

Letter #6463
Title: Bring back GP as regional
Request: Eliminating the GP class was done in a completely terrible manner, to the shame of the club & CRB. Now suspending the 2.5 rule makes that process appear even more egregious in hindsight. Bring back GP as a regional-only class (unless participation dictates it should again become national) and allow it to exist across the various regions with a stable ruleset identical to when it was eliminated.

 

[harvey]

Les,

I forgot about the Volvo. I guess the CRB just doesn't like Sweden.. :shock:

Mark

Most likely that would be the owner not the country that they didn't like.

 

[hpmowog]

You'd throw away what are currently the healthiest production classes in 2 decades to bring back some cars that belong in Fproduction anyway, and make it possible for a couple of guys to run 948s a few more years? I don't think anybody here wants that result.

I really don't know who's even running 948's any more, except for Bob Weber. I sold my 948 national engines several years ago, and they're in vintage cars now. I bet others have too.

 

[Keith Church]

Ron,

Cant agree with item 2) "Allow G cars to run in either H or G for the 2012 year with only one National championship in H for 2012". This is the exact same device the former BOD used to kill GP. They eliminated the GP National Championship Runoffs Race for the 2008 season and as a result almost no one raced G nationals in 2008. You said earlier that National racing had become all about the Runoffs so I am surprised you would even suggest no GP Runoffs for 2012. This would be devastating for GP participation. GP must come back as a National class as it was for decades, a regional only class would simply kill the idea.

I see a couple more request letter #'s. Thanks guys. What about the rest of you?

Keith Church