A simple plan for the SCCA (especially Club Racing)

[Curtis]

The regional / national distinction worked because the same classes populated both.

Bingo! 20 years of it being to hard, short of buying a new car, to move from IT to Production and no where for IT to move up to a higher level of prep and ......well here we are. Now LP Production concept is finally proved despite never really being expanded, supported, marketed, or invested in by the club, and what do we get, ST, because well, apparently our original concepts and brands have no value, and our number 1 priority is to be just like NASA.

 

[disquek]

This notion that we need 2 levels, so that one level (National) can feel superior is silly. How does having less drivers competing together make the racing better?

Karl,

The distinction between regional and national does not exist so that folks running nationals can "feel" superior. I find that assertion inflammatory and out-of-line. Are you trying to start a fight or discuss an idea?

It exists for several reasons. One is to provide a separation of faster and slower racers or more experienced from less experienced. This is currently imperfect. Some slower less experienced folks show up at nationals. That's okay. Nothing is perfect. I'd prefer to see more strict qualifications for national participation, but I'm okay with what we have. I moved to national racing, in part, to get away from some very "inexperienced" racing skills I'd experienced in regional racing (and it worked - nationals have been far less "crashy").

Another reason is to provide a more "high end" experience for those that choose it. Nationals are more expensive (the entry fees are higher). You pay for the fact that there are fewer cars and that the average competitor is faster and more experienced. For some folks this is worth it.

Another is that all forms of racing come in tiers. GP2->F1. Nationwide->Sprint Cup. ST->GT. Indy Lite->Indy. And so on. People want to have something to work toward, to set goals and achieve them. Nationals provide that for the club racer.

I know that folks that identify themselves as "regional competitors" will get their back up and tell me that there are some amazing regional racers out there with awesome programs and talent. No argument from me there. I agree. I'm strictly speaking of averages. But understand that if you identify yourself as a "regional competitor" you have chosen the junior varsity team of your own accord. I didn't make this up. The club has been organized this way for decades.

Here's a great example: In GTL despite there only being 11 cars entered, you've got 15 national championships among the competitors. In SM (where everyone says you find the "best" racing), there is one (maybe). Which win is harder fought? It's GTL for my money all day.

I find the notion of combining national racing and regional racing to be the same as if high schools combined varsity and JV because that way no one gets their feelings hurt. Society might be heading down this path of homogenization, but let's let racing be racing. Let's let merit have value.

-Kyle

 

[David Dewhurst]

In SM (where everyone says you find the "best" racing), there is one (maybe). Which win is harder fought? It's GTL for my money all day.
-Kyle

Each individul has his/her definition of "best" racing. In my view "best" racing on track is when cars are nose to tail, w2w for the entire race. 2011 Runoffs races from F production & Spec Miata come to mind as "best" races to me. IMHJ harder fought at the track, hands down. I watched many races last year, but those two stuck. :wink:

 

[disquek]

In SM (where everyone says you find the "best" racing), there is one (maybe). Which win is harder fought? It's GTL for my money all day.
-Kyle

Each individul has his/her definition of "best" racing. In my view "best" racing on track is when cars are nose to tail, w2w for the entire race. 2011 Runoffs races from F production & Spec Miata come to mind as "best" races to me. IMHJ harder fought at the track, hands down. I watched many races last year, but those two stuck. :wink:

You're right, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You mean the SM race where the winner was DQ'd and booted from the club for cheating, contact, and unsportsmanlike conduct (threatening his competition with taking them out and then actually doing it)? Where there were how many wrecks? Or how about the prior year where it ended under the second? ... third? ... caution? No thanks. That's not good racing in my book. That's big check books, ego, and inexperience.

It's like saying I'd rather go to the truck stop buffet because I can get all the slop I want rather than find a nice local restaurant where they care about the quality of what they're serving you. I'll take the quality.

Kind of makes you wonder why there are few (or none) runoffs winners that share the love for SM? Why only one (with an asterisk'ed win)? Remember, that SM leads the club in a lot of things, including the percentage of people bailing.

-Kyle

 

[Bob Hess]

I think adding a "chump" style event to an SCCA weekend is a great idea. Treat it as a lower-tier (which it is) form of racing within the club and it will allow the more budget oriented drivers/tinkerers to see an SCCA weekend in action. Make the "chump" class go last so they see all of the events leading up to it and get interested. I'm attending an event at the Glen in October that has school on Friday, regional on Saturday and Pro-it and a 4 hour enduro on Sunday. I think it's genius. A little bit of everything for everyone.

Another idea that NER is tossing around was issuing "crew passes" for a weekend. Basically a ticket for an SCCA race weekend that you can give to friends, family, strangers. When people have a ticket in hand, they are more likely to attend....more random attendance (fans), more potential growth. Whether that growth is membership or actual participants, either way it is a win.

SCCA already made a Chump class... It's called H-Production. "Run what ya brung... regardless of size or shape" Crew passes work! Been doing it for years.

 

[Protech Racing]

My Wife and I raced Hobie 18s for a long while at a very high level. Anyone could go the Nationals. Only the top 25 made the finals. This is the best way,IMHO. And the system used by most successful racing orgs. Takes out the $ value of being able to take off work for weeks at a time, to build points. You dont go blind by any means, if you did not win a few races at the local division, you had no chance. You were just going to observe how the really fast teams did it. Some days you're the student..

We have been with SCCA on and off for many years. 1982 on.
Wife had no idea of the concept of regional and national. Why? we have never bothered with national level racing with our cars. SCCA is considered by me and most others, a hobby level; racing group. I told her about the national/regional thing and she just laughed , as she does about most of the SCCA decisions/ tech hassles/etc.

Why can'nt every one just go and try to qualify for Nats?? Just because some Doc can run his mega buck car, 4 races, lets him go, while my college kid ( that is faster) cant afford to race that many times.
SCCA is a club for the exclusive few, esp at the Nat level.
The two tier thing is no longer of value. IMHO. The racers in the upper group, clearly are not superior, they just race more often while spending more on tires, and entries.
Yes, currently it is an uppity system.

 

[David Dewhurst]

In SM (where everyone says you find the "best" racing), there is one (maybe). Which win is harder fought? It's GTL for my money all day.
-Kyle

Each individul has his/her definition of "best" racing. In my view "best" racing on track is when cars are nose to tail, w2w for the entire race. 2011 Runoffs races from F production & Spec Miata come to mind as "best" races to me. IMHJ harder fought at the track, hands down. I watched many races last year, but those two stuck. :wink:

You're right, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

You mean the SM race where the winner was DQ'd and booted from the club for cheating, contact, and unsportsmanlike conduct (threatening his competition with taking them out and then actually doing it)? Where there were how many wrecks? Or how about the prior year where it ended under the second? ... third? ... caution? No thanks. That's not good racing in my book. That's big check books, ego, and inexperience.

It's like saying I'd rather go to the truck stop buffet because I can get all the slop I want rather than find a nice local restaurant where they care about the quality of what they're serving you. I'll take the quality.

Kind of makes you wonder why there are few (or none) runoffs winners that share the love for SM? Why only one (with an asterisk'ed win)? Remember, that SM leads the club in a lot of things, including the percentage of people bailing.

-Kyle

Opinion:

This ^ sounds like a dis-gruntled "X" Spec Miata racer.

Did you note that I specifically noted the year of the races suggested as the "BEST" racing.

2011 Runoffs, not 2010 Runoffs. :wink:

As a side note, if we were to race mileage average out the wrecks (your word) my suspect is the end result would be average. :think:

 

[disquek]

I am an ex SM racer. That means I have a deep understanding of what goes on there. Now you're trying to taint my opinion with negative words bordering on name calling.

My point about the 2011 runoffs stands. SM made a HUGE mess for the club in 2011. Frankly I'm shocked that you'd bring it up. You do realize that the on track winner was DQ'd and kick out of the club? Was it 2010 or 2009 that the SM runoffs were more than half under caution?

Average miles per contact is 10x worse in SM (and SRF) than in small bore. And I think I'm being kind. SM (and SRF) seem to have their own rules on contact. It's just a different world where some contact is viewed as ok.

Let's not turn this into a debate about SM. Let's save that for a different day.

My point was that winning in GTL means you beat fifteen national championships. Winning in SM means you beat one asterisked one. These are facts, not opinions.

-Kyle

 

[KDENNIS]

Here is group 2 for the Labor Day race at MSR Houston.
2. BG*, EP, FP, GTL, HP, ITA*, ITB*, ITC*, LC*, SPB*, SRX7*, SSC, STL, STU, T3

To me, this looks like a nightmare. How is weeding through this many cars and classes
to get to the guy your actually racing, better? I have 0 interest in honing my race craft by
figuring out how to get by a car that is absolutely nothing like mine, not in my class, on different different tires, and gets his lap time a completely different way than I do. There is no substitute for 30 cars all in the same class racing for a win.

I have no issue with everybody being invited to the runoffs. I have proposed it before. Tighten up the 107% rule and let anybody try and qualify for the "A main". Use the National schedule to accrue points to gurantee a starting spot and other incentives to keep the national numbers up. Everybody is welcome to come and try, but if you can't meet the % through 3 rounds of qualifying.......well, thanks for coming, try again next year.

All classes at the Runoffs, I don't like. The Runoffs has always been and will always be to me every pass is for a position. I don't even like the way it is now with 2 classes in a championship race. Keep the 2 tier system to allow a little weeding out of the obscure region specific classes. Realign some of what we have now to allow IT national and to the runoffs without clogging the system and quit breaking everybodys balls and nickel and diming the guy that towed half way across the country to come and race his freakin car..

 

[team-gpracing]

We have been with SCCA on and off for many years. 1982 on.
Wife had no idea of the concept of regional and national. Why? we have never bothered with national level racing with our cars. SCCA is considered by me and most others, a hobby level; racing group. I told her about the national/regional thing and she just laughed , as she does about most of the SCCA decisions/ tech hassles/etc.

My wife said almost the exact same thing. The whole division/region/sub-championship thing is soooooo confusing to a newcomer. I still struggle at the beginning of the season to determine which and how many races I need to do to qualify for my regional championship. If everything was one system that allowed for points towards a real championship, holy cow that would be amazing.

Why can't every one just go and try to qualify for Nats?? Just because some Doc can run his mega buck car, 4 races, lets him go, while my college kid ( that is faster) cant afford to race that many times.
SCCA is a club for the exclusive few, esp at the Nat level.
The two tier thing is no longer of value. IMHO. The racers in the upper group, clearly are not superior, they just race more often while spending more on tires, and entries.
Yes, currently it is an uppity system.

Genius. I agree completely. I am sure some of the drivers are indeed better, but it is really about money.

 

[Protech Racing]

Kevin,
That is funny. I just called my RE about the grouping of GRP 6 for the Sebring race..
SM is in with a pile of classes, all about the same lap times. Michael will put his HP Rocco smack in the top 20% of the SM class. I really dont want him in the pile of crashes that will be lap one. He has not run into anything in his 40-50 race career. (We also have a1.6 SM, but save it for NASA. Way less CTC!!)
So, the real and maybe the only benefit of National only races is the better grouping of the classes.??

1) Simply grouping classes with more speed differential would be a huge improvement (for me.) Why does SCCA put the same speed cars together? We really dont care about running down that ITA car.

2) more split starts,esp at the long tracks. Why not? .


Less classes..

What else?

 

[Bob Hess]

Kevin,
That is funny. I just called my RE about the grouping of GRP 6 for the Sebring race..
SM is in with a pile of classes, all about the same lap times. Michael will put his HP Rocco smack in the top 20% of the SM class. I really dont want him in the pile of crashes that will be lap one. He has not run into anything in his 40-50 race career. (We also have a1.6 SM, but save it for NASA. Way less CTC!!)
So, the real and maybe the only benefit of National only races is the better grouping of the classes.??

1) Simply grouping classes with more speed differential would be a huge improvement (for me.) Why does SCCA put the same speed cars together? We really dont care about running down that ITA car.

2) more split starts,esp at the long tracks. Why not? .


Less classes..

What else?

Mike... Hopefully I'm going to be in the same territory as Michael in my H car next weekend. Hate not having the opportunity to go head to head with the cars in my class. With that many SMs I'm sure they feel the same way. Just looking to get some more points and have something left of the car.

Bob HP 13

 

[Matt Blehm]

Here is group 2 for the Labor Day race at MSR Houston.
2. BG*, EP, FP, GTL, HP, ITA*, ITB*, ITC*, LC*, SPB*, SRX7*, SSC, STL, STU, T3

Just for clarity, here's a breakdown of what *actually* shows up at a race here:
BG= haven't seen one in ~30 races
EP= 3 to 6
FP= 2 to 4
GTL= 1 to 3
HP= 1 to 3
ITA= 1 to 6 (SM double dippers mostly)
ITB= 0 to 2
ITC= 0 to 1
LC= have only seen 1, and that guy sold the car recently because he was tired of getting run over by World Challenge Drivers coming to play with amateurs, then knocking them off the track.
SPB= none yet
SRX7= 0 to 3
SSC= 0 to 2
STL= 2 to 6
STU= 3 to 6
T3= 0 to 3

So basically it boils down to a handful each of EP, FP, STU, STL, ITA, and a couple GTL. Usually it's split just about 1/2 with DOT and slicks.

If we could have one more run group in our schedule, I really would like to see this group split in two-- but would also want more entries in each class so it's not just another lapping session.
That said, many of the STU cars in our area are fast enough in the turns that they keep up with the slick-tired cars. most of my close racing has been with the mid-pack Prod and GTL guys. As an STU driver, the cars I have a problem with are the same ones the Prod classes have. the mid-pack drivers in each class that have more power, but just don't carry speed or brake late enough.

Last race was my second race in about 35 nationals where I had contact. this was with an EP car that would pull 100ft on me at the front straight at TWS. I would pass him coming out of T2. He'd pass me back between 2 and 3. I'd pass him again through the 4-5-6 combination. he'd pass me again on the 6-7 straight. I'd come out in front of him after 8-9 combination, and he'd be 5 cars behind me by the front straight. blow by at start finish, and we'd do the same thing again.
eventually, my splitter support caught on his protruding exhaust (that sucker stuck out like 10" !!), and I inadvertently turned him..

come to think of it, my first instance of on-track conduct was with another Prod car that frustrated me because he was braking very early and was holding me up.. that one I flat out lost my patience and tried a move that I shouldn't have.

so yeah.. it's a 2-way street. well-driven DOT cars are held up by poorly driven slick cars too. no one class or group is better than the other, nor are they more deserving of track space. When I'm not racing for position and there's Prod cars together, I get out of the way. the other side of that coin is I expect the same from the other racers on the track.

 

[Steve Eckerich]

Glad you all agree.

Further, each current National class continues to go to the runoffs. Nationally recognized regional classes (IT) don't initially, though they may petition to change that if the competitors wish. Classes such as club ford and club continental would not be allowed to petition as they already have entree through the national class for those cars (FF or FC).

Under your plan CF/CC cars don't get an invite because there are already National classes for those cars. OK. You do realize that nearly every IT car can fit into the current National structure we have in place now via ST and Prod? If IT guys want to go they already can.

If IT drivers wanted to go production or ST, they would. IT has one of the most stable, competitive rule sets in SCCA racing today. I say this as a driver who has run GP, FP, EP, and ITS. IT cars we build are at a prep level equal to any well prepped car on the grid. I have worked with Speedsource since their IT days and buy our old ITS cars back and return them to new condition. At this past weekends Charlotte race we had 20 ITS cars alone entered and 250 entrants when we closed registration before test day. Parts of the country are different but look at participation numbers and you will see many IT classes at the upper end. Mostly because someone is not always jerking with the rules, or seems to think it is cool to bust every car at the runoffs for a stupid screen in the grill as everyone has run for years. IT has an active adhoc constantly adding new cars as they reach 5 year age. They use a good stable formula and keep the politics out for the most part. Show me a catagory with new cars being built at any real pace. Nobody shoots a moving target and likes it.

 

[Acme Speed Shop]

I don't think those that compete in the national road race program fully realize their pecking order currently, it's not what it used to be. These days regions get more entries running regionals, thus they make money doing so, a regional race is way safer bet to the region vs a national. Many regions also include some sort of semi-pro series which includes the more popular regional only cars to supplement national race"s entry, in some cases, some regions would lose money without doing this. Ok then there is the runoffs, it still is the best of the best, and anyone who does well, or wins a championship is truely worthy, but with that being said, it's not what it used to be either, entry numbers keep dropping, no matter what the club does, ok so HPT was a good enough venue for the runoffs, we take to a track like RA, rich in history, guess what, entries go even further down in numbers. Maybe it is the economy, maybe it is the mind set of the younger generation, whatever. but there is no denying national racing is getting smaller.

When you look at some the old school prod cars, who of the younger generation would want to build such a car these days, not many, if any. SCCA is also guilty of deluting itself, when they were the only show in town, you could have a kazillion race dates, now you just end up with some very low attended events, and a way to change that and save money for the regions, is have fewer, more important events, combining national and regional is a feasilbe way to do this. Go to national, you got maybe 3 cars in a given prod, go to regional, same thing, so why not have them combined and have a 6 car field ?

The issue is way bigger than national racing and the runoffs, it's the overall concept of SCCA club racing and it being the most stale loaf of bread at the bakery, time to make new loaf fellas.

I think the club should look hard at the post 72 era prod/gt cars as for SCCA vintage for example, these cars are not getting a warm welcome at the traditional vintage races, but more and more groups are looking at it hard. Ok, so in few years if the vintage groups start accepting post 72 era prod/gt cars, and it catches on, then bascily the SCCA just handed another market over to their competitors.

I think many are too close to the scene, and club government has stale, even an elistist viewpoint, maybe it is the small businessman in me, I like to call it the non-employee's viewpoint, but you have to market for the people to come spend money with you, sitting on your laurels never worked for most, and it's not working for the SCCA. Oh yeah, club government has tried to invent some new blood thru new classes, almost all of them costing $50K+ to get into, I mean did they really think that would work for the masses, and create growth. Either make the club more acessible to masses, at lesser cost of getting into the sport, and develop a loyal membership base from the begining with these folks, or be content to be a big fish in a very small pond, that is slowing drying up.

 

[James Rogerson]

The thing that we need to look at is where are all the economy cars? Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Kia, Hyundai and others should be everywhere. But we have rule sets to make them slower than something built in 1950. Instead we should make them all limited prep and bring back GP FWD only. One of our crazy rules is cam lift. I can buy off the shelf cams for many cars only to see the rule set ask for .001 less than the commercial market. What is up with that? Someone has to be doing that on purpose to drive up development costs. Not a hi-jack, but it goes along with the general theme of where are the newer cars going.

James

 

[Karl McColl]

Hap, in Colorado and in a lot of other regions its just the opposite. We can't draw enough regional cars to support a weekend. About 30-40% what we draw for a National. Thats why rationals work; no matter what your region's particular attendance problem, they bring out cars. That is also why eliminating the regional/national will work.

 

[Gary Wittman]

The thing that we need to look at is where are all the economy cars? Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Kia, Hyundai and others should be everywhere.

James

Take a look at HP. Honda and Toyota are doing well there. Well Toyota has not been running up front at the Runoffs but there might be a surprise this year. I don't think there have been many requests for Mitsubishi, Kia, Hyundai and others. I don't think any reasonable requests have been turned down in Production. If you want to run one of these that is not in the book, put in a request.

 

[Curtis]

The thing that we need to look at is where are all the economy cars? Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Kia, Hyundai and others should be everywhere. But we have rule sets to make them slower than something built in 1950. Instead we should make them all limited prep and bring back GP FWD only. One of our crazy rules is cam lift. I can buy off the shelf cams for many cars only to see the rule set ask for .001 less than the commercial market. What is up with that? Someone has to be doing that on purpose to drive up development costs. Not a hi-jack, but it goes along with the general theme of where are the newer cars going.

James

While it is true that Limited Prep cars were initially to conservatively classed and that has slowed the growth of Production, I think the problem is cost at this point, not how they are classified. Developing a car, even a Kia, never before raced to the "Huffaker Spridget/Sargis Spitfire" level is outrageously expensive and time consuming. That kind of money will put you in a BMW or Porsche or best of best older car With enough left over to buy a motor home. Further factor in the risk that SCCA will be the only place to seriously race your new toy and could pull the rug out from under you anytime, and it gets really difficult to rationalize If you look at the niche marques multiple racers have cooperated on like Miata, Honda, and VW they are quite successful. None of the current Production class National champions are more than 30 years old, and none of the podium finishers is a first time marque/model effort other than Jason's Yaris. How easy was it to get that Yaris up front Jason? Anyway, not a rules problem IMHO. Also, Production will soon be competing with STL for Leftover C Spec cars so we should make a welcoming and happy place for them ASAP.

 

[Acme Speed Shop]

Hap, in Colorado and in a lot of other regions its just the opposite. We can't draw enough regional cars to support a weekend. About 30-40% what we draw for a National. Thats why rationals work; no matter what your region's particular attendance problem, they bring out cars. That is also why eliminating the regional/national will work.

Karl, I don't think that is the case anywhere on the Eastern side of the country. I went to a regional at Charlotte Motor Speedway last weekend and they had 220 entrants, the VIR double is the only national in the SEDIV that prodcues that many entries ,and the most popular non runoffs SCCA race in the country is the race is the Florida regional after Thanksgiving, like 400 entries. Florida now has the most SCCA driver comp license of any state in the country, in fact more comp license in Florida, than the rest of the SEDIV combined, and the SEDIV has almost twice as many comp license than any of the other divisions, and probably 85% of thoe Florida comp licenses are used in regional racing.