Who is in your race group? Do you like your race group?

team-gpracing

team-gpracing

Well-known member
I recently ran an event where the race group that included the prod cars (EP, HP, SSM, SM2, etc) was so large that they had to remove both production classes and put us in with SRF. I loved it. It was a challenge for the SRF guys to work around us and it was a challenge for us to drive a safe race and still race our competition. It was basically like a half-speed ALMS race. I wish we raced with them all the time. I posted this topic over at our regional forum, and it is getting very little response, so I figured I'd ask here. Just wondering what other classes you're grouped with and if you've ever raced alongside SRF. Also if you're happy with your grouping.

Please feel free to stop by the NER forum and read and/or post on the topic here.
 
In the DC Region, our SRF count is large enough for its own group. In the out of region races I've had to run with them. For the races, we vote for a split start, but during qualifying races and qualifying, I've been fast enough to stay ahead or pass them in the first couple of laps and get on with it without them getting in the way. By the time you start lapping them it is easier to deal with.

The biggest issue that I'm aware of is their ability to see you, as well as their aggressive driving during a race, but that is probably something every group deals with. My only word of caution is that if you see one, there is probably another 2-3 tucked in behind him ... they don't tend to drive around solo, but in trains.

So for me, the biggest issue is not wanting them around to slow me down during qualifying.
 
Yeah, they make up their own group up here too. It's just that there were only about 12-18 of them, whereas there were about 50 Miatas in the other group that we moved from. On a track as small as Lime Rock, that's pretty tight.

You are absolulely correct though, there is never just one of them.
 
I'm enjoying the Colorado Region group this year, EP, FP, HP and GTL. Big Thanks to the folks that took the SSB and SSC cars out and moved them in with SM. :applause: :applause: :applause:

It's nice to know that some high HP DOT car that can't turn won't be holding me up.
 
Coming thru the bus stop at Watkins Glen a couple weeks ago during qualifying, I watched a SRF attempt to make an inside pass up ahead of me on a Scirocco. The move was do-able, but in my head I said "y'know, I don't think that Scirocco even knows that SRF is there", at which point the Scirocco blindly turned in on the guy and clipped him, causing SRF to spin.

Talking with the SRF driver afterwards, no real harm was done, but the height differential between SRFs and surrounding vehicles has proven problematic numerous times (as well as other problems noted by others above). Of course, we face that problem with open vs. closed cars no matter what, but SRFs are so low that the visibility problem often seems more pronounced.

See also: Elizabeth Miller's spectacular in-car video from Summit Point a couple years ago, which depicts what REALLY can go wrong when SRFs run with other race groups. This is the reason they run by themselves at Summit now, no matter group size. Would provide the link if I wasn't at work. Parker might know the link...
 
Differences in size can always be a problem no matter which classes get combined. At VIR last year I lined up on the false grid next to a SSB Mustang and the driver asked his crew if there was a car there. I am quite sure he wouldn't see me if I tried a pass at a corner, and I'm not sure he would even know if he ran over me.

Maybe I don't understand, but it looked like the crash shown in the video could have happened if all three cars were SRF's rather than the mixture of Production cars and SRF's.

Clearly the ideal race group is E, F, H, and GTL. We need to keep our numbers up so that we can make a full grid out of these classes, or else we will be combined with something else. Whether it is ST(X), SS(X), or T(X) it won't be real good for small production cars.
 
I agree with Ron, I don't understand how this video shows that production cars should not run with SRF. The production car doesn't change it's line and Elizabeth runs into the back of him. If anything the other SRF on the right has room to move further to the right to allow three wide. If that prod car was another slower SRF the same incident would have occurred. At least that's what I see in the video.

Let's say for example that the SRFs in the video were fast Miatas and the prod car was HP instead. You would have the same result. Maybe not a flip, but definitely a crash.

40 SSM and SM2 cars on the track often attempt the same stuff....trying to cram 5 feet of car in a 3 foot slot.



CBB, you bring up a good point about visibility and I agree that the height of SRFs makes them more difficult to see. It probably doesn't make that SRF driver feel any better to say that it's the Scirocco's responsibility to make sure he doesn't have a faster car approaching.
 
What you cannot see in the video from Elizabeth's car is the third SRF on the inside. So you have a four wide group (EP car, SRF, SRF, SRF) on the exit of T10.
The second from the right SRF (the one next to Elizabeth's on the right) starts moving toward her, trying to give room for the car on his right. Elizabeth overreacts and hits the EP car on right front wheel with her left front wheel.
I was part of the interview process in the tower after this. There were many factors involved that led to this they are in no order of importance:
This was the second to the last points race of the season.
The three SRF's involved were in a very tight points chase with less than fifty points separating any of the three from a championship.
The driver of the EP car involved was an experienced racer from out of region. He had never raced at Summit Point before. He knew that the lead gaggle of SRF's was there, he opted to ease out of the throttle on the exit of T10 to give the SRF's a chance to accelerate away so that he would not have to deal with the dive bomb passes going into T1 2700 feet further up track. His EP car had the legs to run away from the three SRF's on the exit of T10.

Again, luckily no one was hurt.

There are two primary reason that SRF's and production cars should not be grouped together are:
1. Mindset. The fast SRF drivers know that they cannot lift, if they do they will get freight trained by SRF drivers that do not. This works for them and I do not begrudge them this. But it does not work when they are combined with other groups that do not race this way.

2. I will call this "ease of repair" for lack of a better term. When an SRF gets crashed they are easily fixable. There are usually SRF service providers at most races (even regional races) that can get the car back on track. If parts are needed they are just a phone call to SCCA Enterprises away. A production car on the other hand is not so simple. When a production car gets crashed the car is usually out for some time, there are often parts that have to be sourced or fabricated. While all of this is part of the "risk of the sport", why should we make it harder on ourselves than it has to be?

I will not pretend to tell other regions how they should group cars. That is their choice and based on their local experience of what works best for them. I know what works best for the Small Bore production group that I represent in the DC Region, which is having SRF in its own group not combined with production cars.
The SRF drivers representative agrees with me on this issue and it works for all involved.

Your results may vary.
cheers
dave parker
 
team-gpracing":303aq9d4 said:
The production car doesn't change it's line and Elizabeth runs into the back of him.
Click to expand...

You need to watch the video more closely. No one runs into the back of anyone in the video I linked to.

cheers
dave parker
 
Here in GLDiv, we don't have any hard and fast rules about what classes are grouped together in races. Prod/GTL has run all by itself, with SRF, with SM, with STL....you name it. I've run with STU once (in NEDiv) and I won't do that again. For our Grattan event next month, I have us running with STL. Thats to allow SM guys to double dip in STL. After having run with SRFs at GingerMan last weekend, I didn't have any problems.

Yes, in a perfect world we'd run by ourselves. Until the last year or so we could get away with that. But our numbers were falling enough to warrant adding a class into our race group.

Dayle
 
Another issue that seems to arise when smallbore Prod and SRF are mixed is the whole question of split vs single start. Re split starts, the GCR mandates (?) that the group with the fastest car starts ahead in a split start, which sounds OK on the surface but which IMHO creates unintended consequences in some instances, particularly in a regional race situation with a wide performance range in the Prod group.

What I've seen several times is a race where a very few Prod cars are faster than the SRFs, most are slower and some much slower (in terms of lap time). A split start is done, with the Prod group in front per the GCR. So what you get, given that the bulk of the Prod group are slower than ALL of the SRFs, combined with the inevitable bunching of the rear of the Prod field, is a freight train of the leading SRFs quickly tearing into the bulk of the Prod field.

A split start the other way around might be better, though I might not agree if I had an EP car and thus needed to fight through the SRF field. A combined start might be best of all, of course if I were an FP car lodged in the middle of the SRF field maybe I would not like that either.

As Dave says, at Summit Point both the Prod and the SRF groups seem happiest apart and fortunately there have been enough smallbore Prod cars lately to justify a race group....

Al Seim
HP Scirocco
 
Al - the decision to have a split start is overseen by the stewards of the event. When the situation presents itself as you say - that the front group actually contains one fastest car and then a majority of slower cars (as happens often), the group can request the CS to switch the groups. Happens all the time. Usually pisses off that fastest guy, but everyone else seems pretty happy and the fastest guy just laps everyone anyway, so immaterial.

Doesn't always work out as requested. Believe we requested the switch at .... the Glen, perhaps? And it still got screwed up and didn't happen. But the option to ask for the switch is always there.
 
Ron Bartell":237wrexm said:
Differences in size can always be a problem no matter which classes get combined...
Clearly the ideal race group is E, F, H, and GTL. We need to keep our numbers up so that we can make a full grid out of these classes, or else we will be combined with something else...
Click to expand...
Agree with this 100%. I've been complaining/whining about the groupings we have here on the west coast for awhile. But we don't have the production ranks to really make too much of a case.

In Cal Club typically, EP/FP/GTL race with GT1-3, AS, STO (and with the Rational races SP/ITE) and HP is with SS, T1-3 (and Rational with IT). SRF sometimes gets there own group of 12-15, or is combined with FV, F500, FF. SM typically gets its own group with 12-25 cars.

Last weekend in the San Francisco region Rational, FP/HP were with IT/SS/STO-STL, while EP/GTL were with GT1-3, T1-3, SP, ITE and "American V-8". San Francisco Reg has a very strong regional presence, including IT. Both race groups had over 50 cars and SM group was limited to 70 because of the cars/mile rule.

I haven't had to race with SRF in awhile, but I don't see them as an issue (maybe because I haven't been with them). The variety of cars that we group together, that have such a huge difference in performance in corners versus the straights , makes an issue. Just because SSB and HP might make similar laps times doesn't mean that they are good to group together. Some of the rep that SM and SRF get (rubbin is racin') comes from have a lot of cars that have relatively equal performance. Some of it comes from inexperienced racers that don't have their blood, sweat and tears into their one-of-a-kind production-mobile.
 
Al, I agree with you on the split starts, it seems to amplify any issues rather than make them better. I think a segregated start as opposed to a true split start is the best bet. But what do I know?

Dave, I re-watched the video and I see that she makes contact on the side rather than in the back, you are right. In regard to your two reasons for not combining prod and SRF, I don't see how that is any different than combining us with a fleet of Miatas. Cheap, replaceable parts and the mindset that not only are the cars replaceable, but equally matched, which encourages high-risk driving. Our group is EP, FP, HP, GTL, STU, STL, SSM and SM2 what do you run in DC?
 
Groups with greater lap time variance, make for better racing in your class. The SRF guys dont want to mess with your HP car. You are in the way of their race. IMHo
The SRF are some of the best driven cars that SCCA has. The lap times VS power is very good.
I moved over to allow one SRF to pass and three went by( in the dark).

Short story, more variance, better class racing, less variance more "inter class" racing. IMHO.

Karts make you stuff the pass , a lot like SM only with a little less patience .

PS edit. I was wrong
 
team-gpracing":3a5iexvr said:
Al, I agree with you on the split starts, it seems to amplify any issues rather than make them better. I think a segregated start as opposed to a true split start is the best bet. But what do I know?

Dave, I re-watched the video and I see that she makes contact on the side rather than in the back, you are right. In regard to your two reasons for not combining prod and SRF, I don't see how that is any different than combining us with a fleet of Miatas. Cheap, replaceable parts and the mindset that not only are the cars replaceable, but equally matched, which encourages high-risk driving. Our group is EP, FP, HP, GTL, STU, STL, SSM and SM2 what do you run in DC?
Click to expand...

Our Small Bore production group in the DC Region is EP, FP, HP, GTL, GTP (GT Pinto), LC (Legends Cars) SPU (Super Production Under 2.5L), STU, and STL.
I will say that our Small Bore group is a pretty good group to race with. The participants respect each other and each others equipment. We do not have much (if any) beat and bang going on, and we want it to stay that way.

We have large enough participation in SM that they have their own run group, we also have SSM (region specific more restricted prep SM class) that is large enough to have its own run group as well.

Again, I would not tell another region how it should run its program or create its race groups. However, I would vote with my feet and my wallet by not participating in a race grouping that I did not agree with.

cheers
dave parker
 
Protech Racing":2spr2wrp said:
PS the SRF endo wreck, (Elizebeth) was fresh out of karts and brought the kart mentality to club racing.
Karts make you stuff the pass , a lot like SM only with a little less patience .
Click to expand...

Elizabeth never raced karts AFAIK, and I've known her for...at least 12 years. She's been racing SRFs all along IIRC as well as participating in club events as an instructor (Porsche, BMW, Ferrari) and was the head instructor of the FATT program for BSR for a couple years. She's got pretty good chops, but I don't think she was ever in karts, and at the time of incident, was definitely not "fresh out" of anything.
 
Protech Racing":nd612da7 said:
PS the SRF endo wreck, (Elizebeth) was fresh out of karts and brought the kart mentality to club racing.
Click to expand...

Mike
Your statement is wrong.
The driver of the SRF in the video that I linked is Elizabeth Miller.
I think the driver that you are referencing is Beth Chryst. Beth came to sports car racing from a pretty successful karting effort that brought her several regional and national championships.
Beth Chryst races with us in the DC Region Small Bore production group when she wants to run a low key fun event.
We have had no problems with her or her driving.

cheers
dave parker
 
now)..
MM
PS. Parker correction. My bad. Beth, Elizebeth
The vid i watched was the SRf driving over the TR .

PS edit. Iwas wrong. Sorry Beth
 
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