TMS Invitational Grand Prix

[Sydney Yagel]

The Parts Plus Texas Grand Prix is the first Invitation race in the SCCA Majors series and is coming up at one of the Southwest Division's tracks: Texas Motor Speedway on May 4-6. The atmosphere is always great, as Texas Region puts on a wonderful event. Friday night there's a "Beer Bust" and Saturday night there will be a party at the Lone Star Tower Clubhouse. Both are lots of fun and a must-attend party.

Registration is now open and you can register online through MotorsportsReg.com here: http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm/ ... 8343F937ED or if you'd like to view the entry and supps, or register by mail, you can find the entry here: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/ass ... 5Final.pdf

You can see the current list of entrants here: http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm/ ... 8343F937ED

Oh, and there will be races Friday and Saturday for the non-Invitational classes too!

Because it’s a Majors race, it will bring racers from all over the country. I'm looking forward to competing with some drivers whom I don't normally race against. Not only is it fun meeting new people, but it also makes for some good driving.

For those of you who have never been to Texas Motor Speedway, the garages used for this event are the same garages the NASCAR and IZOD IndyCar Series teams use. They are really nice, and totally worth the $50 weekend rental. If you have a larger rig, the Turn 1 parking lot is a great spot too. You can park along the fence line and see the action as the cars head into Turn 1. There are several hotels directly around the track in various price ranges. Most are listed on the first or fifth page of the entry PDF. There are lots of restaurants and hotels a bit south of the track off I-35W, as well as the 820 loop. If you head east on Hwy 114 for about 20 minutes, you'll get to a part of town called Grapevine. There are lots of hotels, restaurants and shopping there also.

If you have questions, just let me know! Hope to see some of yall there!

 

[peterzekert]

[Sidney, Thanks for the post and be assured that the following comment is not personal.]

For the Non-Invitational race groups 1 & 2:
1 FA, FB, FC, FE, CSR, DSR, S2, ASR*, FS*

2 AS, GT1, GT2, GT3, GTL, GTA*, T1, T2, T3, STO, STL, SSB, SSC, ITA*, ITB*, ITC*, ITE*,
ITR*, ITS*, SP*, ST*, SRX7*, BG*, SPB*, SM5*

Anyone see any problems with lumping the non-Majors groups together? GT1 racing with an ITC; a GTL or even smaller, a Baby Grand? Do I need to remind people that we have lost (killed) drivers in the past with these types of race groups.

Just be aware of what the Majors consequences are. We are racers and we accept some level of risk. I think this is too high. Peter

 

[David Dewhurst]

[Sidney, Thanks for the post and be assured that the following comment is not personal.]
GT1 racing with an ITC; a GTL or even smaller, a Baby Grand? Do I need to remind people that we have lost (killed) drivers in the past with these types of race groups.

Peter, I know those WHO make the rules in the CenDiv will read this without responding on this site. I am in total agreement with your grouping thought process. Last year I contacted the CenDiv BoD guy about these type grouping at Blackhawk Farm when they grouped GT1 & Spec Miata. IIRC the lap differential was something like 18 seconds difference. The BoD response was limp. I sugested to him that if he were still racing FV he would never allow FV to be grouped with FA. More limpness. Not that they give a rats A$$ I voted by not entering.

 

[James Rogerson]

Couple of months ago we were looking at some old race records. Lola T-70, Elva, and TR3 in same group. Drivers from Foyt, Fullmer, Carroll Smith and local hero Bill Bagby. Bagby is the only one still driving. 18 second lap differential is normal in prod races.

James -R
Buy my Civic!

 

[jdh]

If we were talking about a narrow natural terrain road course with blind corners such I could more sympathize. BUT, this race is on a roval where 7/8 on the oval is used, the infield is wide, flat, and unobstructed visually. The faster cars use the banking and the smaller slower cars stay down below the nasty car white line or just outside it. There is more than enough room for everyone to have their race.

The Divisional Executive Steward would not have approved the groupings had he thought it unsafe.

The Texas Region Race Chair did the best he could with the schedule he had to work with to give EVERYBODY who wanted to race an opportunity to do so. He is to be applauded for his efforts to include all the racers, not just those national have chosen as being more worthy than everyone else.

This event is going to work. Good times will be had by all. I just hope I have my car finished in time to participate. And no, I am not one of the chosen so I will be in the thick of the low life group.

 

[James Rogerson]

Texas region has really spent the time and effort to work out a three day schedule that supports the Majors events while expanding the groupings and schedule to make an SCCA event a place for as many competitors as possible.

James -R
Houston Region RE

 

[David Dewhurst]

18 second lap differential is normal in prod races.
James -R
Buy my Civic!

I previously have read all you posts with respect.

At the 2 mile Blakhawk Farm road course (not a roval) the following are the track records. The E prod record is 1:15.868 (Loshak) with the H prod at 1:20.145 (Moser) and the Spec Miata 1:22.671 (Bruce Anderson). As they say, do the math.

You been on track with that Moser guy correct. :wink:

 

[Matt Blehm]

It's not the record breakers you have to worry about. It's the guys in beaters 30 sec off the pace that refuse to give way when the leaders are coming through.

 

[David Dewhurst]

Matt, my comment suggests that an 18 sec difference in prod races is not as was suggested the normal for a road corurse.

 

[James Rogerson]

David,
Like Matt pointed out, every race group I run in has 18 second speed differentials. Some more demanding than others. I'm a lot more careful now when running something like the Ralt based CSR with SRF than I was the first time. What is more worrisome to me at least is slicks vs. DOT and similar overall lap times. SSC & Spridgets come to mind immediately.

James -R

edited to correct spelling errors off the tablet while in air terminal

 

[jdh]

Just for shits and giggles let's take a look at the lap records in group 4 at James's track, MSRH (not a roval). The slowest lap record in group 4 is ITC at 2:04 while the fastest is EP at 1:42. You do the math, never mind it is 22 seconds. Group1, Slow SSB 1:52 fast GT1 1:34, or 18 seconds. Ok, tin-tops are a fluke, how about formula cars? Group2 slow FS 1:38, fast FA 1:23 or 15 seconds.

I wonder what the lap time difference between a Daytona Prototype and a GT car is, or a LMP1 and a GT2.

 

[David Dewhurst]

18 second lap differential is normal in prod races.
James -R
Buy my Civic!

Back to the get go guys. I posted about time differentials between a Spec Miata & GT1 cars of 18 seconds.

Then the 18 second time diffferential is "normal in production car races" started. I presumed the conversation turned to talking about "production cars" on a "production car site". I threw in the Spec Miata lap times because that was used within my first post. Now were including ALL production based cars all the way to ITC with a SSB thrown in for good measure. I did note that there is no ITC lap record for the CW direction a MSR Huston.

All is good guys. As per normal a post is on a tangent.

 

[jdh]

18 second lap differential is normal in prod races.
James -R
Buy my Civic!

Back to the get go guys. I posted about time differentials between a Spec Miata & GT1 cars of 18 seconds.

Then the 18 second time diffferential is "normal in production car races" started. I presumed the conversation turned to talking about "production cars" on a "production car site". I threw in the Spec Miata lap times because that was used within my first post. Now were including ALL production based cars all the way to ITC with a SSB thrown in for good measure. I did note that there is no ITC lap record for the CW direction a MSR Huston.

All is good guys. As per normal a post is on a tangent.

My post used lap records because that is the lap time info that was available to me at the time. The comparisons are from cars in the race groups used in the Southwest division. It was in response to this comment

my comment suggests that an 18 sec difference in prod races is not as was suggested the normal for a road corurse.

whoever it was that made it. Using lap records for the class groups shows a best case lap speed differential. If one was to use the lap time of the fastest fast car and the slowest slow car the result would have been much greater than shown. However the data used clearly shows that in our groupings, on one of our non-roval road courses, lap time differentials of 18 seconds or more in a race group are common.

If you have data to support your claim that those lap time differentials do not occur please feel free to post it.

 

[David Dewhurst]

No question you are correct for your division.

Maybe I don't see the CenDiv races when they group GT1 with 18 seconds per lap slower Spec Miata cars because I vote NO with my entry fee. :hand:

Please re-read post #2 of this thread. I'm sure others believe the same.

 

[Matt Blehm]

Just to throw fuel on the fire..
This is one of the Rational races last May, just the small bore class: 34 cars, 48sec lap differential.
http://sowdivscca.org/raceresults/2011/ ... %20Sun.pdf
http://sowdivscca.org/raceresults/2011/ ... %20Sun.pdf

Assuming all of the drivers were "highly skilled", this may not have been such a big deal. However, some of the ones running 2:40 laps were dangerously bad drivers, which made the speed differential pretty scary when you'd think you were clear and the backmarkers would come down on you in the middle of a turn, or even worse- cut you off in the middle of a straight! How can you police things like that? You just can't, unfortunately... They were running in STU, which was running some of the top times as well as some of the worst times of the group..

 

[James Rogerson]

David,
I don't disagree that GT1 & SM could easily be problematic. Especially with drivers in either or both classes with limited skills. Most practice days mix all cars and people flock to enter and we see fewer incidents in those events. The insurance premiums are a clear indicator of where the risk is or isn't. As a point of order carriers only care if you have rules to minimize incidents. A 13/13 rule will drop premiums significantly.

James -R

 

[Matt Blehm]

A 13/13 rule will drop premiums significantly.
James -R

And maybe the driver of a certain orange Miata would learn to behave himself a little better... 8)

 

[disquek]

I have no dog in this fight, but he's my .02 on this grouping. It's worth what you're paying for it.

Although the pros can deal with LMP and GT traffic, that grouping still causes lots of wrecks. Ask anyone that's ever run in ALMS what the number one issue is.

This grouping is way worse than the ALMS situation. The top speed and mid corner speed delta of an LMP1 car compared to a GT car is much closer than a GT1 and ITC car. Plus the GT1 and ITC pilots are likely a 50+ year over weight old man who races twice a year (like me). The ALMS guys are in the seat every weekend and are 30 year olds with worn out gym shoes and six pack abs.

Have you ever overtaken someone where the delta is 40+ mph? It's terrifying. It nearly impossible to judge where the overtaking is going to happen and unless it's dead in the middle of the straight, you're forced to drop your entry speeds to 7/10 (try that when you're fighting for position). It's like having to negotiate a slalom on a one lane road at 40mph where the cones move side to side unexpectedly (then do it 5+ times a lap for 20 laps). Then throw in the idea that while you're trying not to clobber the guy you're overtaking, you may be overtaken at the same time by someone whose faster than you are!

Even if you've run this grouping before, that doesn't make it a good idea. Safety aside, coming up with a more racer friendly grouping will certainly increase participation. Have you ever wondered why the classes in that grouping are under subscribed?

Honestly, you're not doing anyone in this group a favor. You'd be better off picking a group of classes that's safe to run together and excluding the others than running this melting pot of a group. I'd bet you get more entries that way.

Were I closer, I'd say that I'd vote with not attending.

-Kyle

 

[James Rogerson]

The back markers in 'pro' races are typically 40 year old wannabes that have found money and a belief that they should have been a race car driver and after all they drive so well on the street. Don't kid yourself about those series all it takes is a big check that just will not bounce.

James -R

 

[disquek]

So you're saying that the average level of talent at an ALMS event is equal to or less than the average level of talent at an SCCA club race? That it's just bigger dollars?

-Kyle