Race seat

Mazda Jon

Mazda Jon

Well-known member
After my incident at Daytona I'm retiring my Butlerbuilt aluminum race seat.

I need some suggestions for an open car. Looked at a Recaro Profi SPG yesterday and it looks I want to go in that general direction. Still need to figure out the side head restraints.

Thanks,
Jon
 
What was wrong with the ButlerBuilt one? I have one in my car? Not enough side impact support?
 
Broke 2 ribs and bruised lung. Head support, shoulder support bent, but not as much as rib support. Hit backwards at about 45 degrees on the left rear corner and front spun around and also hit the wall.
 
Jon - Could you elaborate as to how your ribs/lung got injured? Did the seat deform into you or was it you slamming/impacting into the seat? There are a lot of Butler/Kirkey aluminum seats in use in this country - not so many in Europe, is the FIA standard that much higher?
Thanks
ez
 
The seat I had was a Butlerbuilt roadrace seat. Got it many years ago and when I ordered it the guy at Butlerbuilt asked a million questions when I ordered it as he said they build the seats for the car and type of racing.

I got a good tow from a T4 Mustang going into the bus stop. This was my 3rd session of the day and about 4-5 laps in. As I came out of the bus stop, I had carried a little more speed and pinched off the exit. When I got up on the exit curb (which was covered with mud from someone going off) and turning to the left the car over rotated (counter clockwise) and backed into the SAFER barrier at about 45 degrees. When the left rear hit the wall the car rotated and the left front hit the wall, pancaking the left side. Pushed the rearend over about 6-8 inches.

Seat is mounted with steel mounts to the side of the seat, about 2-3 inches up the side with a rear support mounted between the shoulder strap holes.

Add on shoulder and head supports.

The head support bent to about a 45 degree angle as did the shoulder support. The rib support did not bend that much. The basic seat did not move.

The broken ribs were compression breaks. So the ribs didn't crack they compressed and shortened.

Other than that, the seat did it's job. I'm happy with all the padding I had in the cockpit. No bruises, sore neck or any other aches and pains other than the ribs. I have the high density roll bar padding on all the tubes on my side of the car and also have a big 2'x3'x2" pad on the inside of the door bars.

Car is still in the trailer, I'll try and get some pics.

The one comment I got from people that stopped by and looked at the car was "Oh look, you have one of those rib breaker seats".

Just bought a Sparco full containment seat.
 
I have a Butler road racing seat in a H-Prod GTI that I race, I cut off the "rib breakers" a couple years ago.. after I read a Detroit Region (I think) presentation made by an Automotive Safety Engineer on how dangerous the "rib wings" were in aluminum racing seats: Butler, Kirkey.

Glad it was not more serious although I know it is painful.
 
The problem I have is getting one to fit in a Spridget. Don't have the width between the trannie tunnel and door bars/hoop - that's why I am using a Kirkey. But after reading Jon's post am rethinking it. Has anyone used a Tillet seat? Not cheap either.
EZ
 
We've got Kirkey wrap around seats in our two HP Bugeyes. Tried no rib protection seats but g-forces didn't allow for good car control. After a 65mph right side impact of a concrete wall at Sebring we're glad the rib protection was there. Will take some rib damage to save the rest of the body. The shoulder wrap arounds don't work in a car that small... can't even get into the cars! I'm more than satisfied with the Kirkey seats but I'd really like side head protection. If anyone knows of a bolt-on unit that has at least a hint of aerodynamics I'd really like to know about it. Thanks!

Bob
 
Jon I believe MazdaMotorsports members get a 10% discount on Sparco stuff. Check with Mazdaspeed or Dave Parker at OGRacing.

I love my Recaro, but it has no head protection. If I weren't dramatically over budget I would upgrade with a wraparound.

Actually looks like OGracing is having a great sale on Sparco seats anyway:
http://www.ogracing.com/car/seats?harne ... cturer=168

Finally- someone correct me, but I think the GCR changed - if you buy an FIA seat, you don't need the seatback brace any longer.
 
blamkin86":1yab4sti said:
Finally- someone correct me, but I think the GCR changed - if you buy an FIA seat, you don't need the seatback brace any longer.
Click to expand...
Correct. As long as the FIA seat is in certification-- they have a time stamp on them just like belts. Once the seat is past it's date, then it must have a back brace just like a non-FIA seat.
 
Matt93SE":27lr1tz9 said:
Correct. As long as the FIA seat is in certification-- they have a time stamp on them just like belts. Once the seat is past it's date, then it must have a back brace just like a non-FIA seat.
Click to expand...

Can you point to that in the GCR? I think you might be confusing us with another group. :wink: Seats, window nets, and HNR currently don't expire with SCCA.
 
9.3.41. SEATS
The driver’s seat shall be a one-piece bucket-type seat and shall be securely
mounted. The back of the seat shall be firmly attached to the
main roll hoop, or its cross bracing, so as to provide aft and lateral support.
Seats that have been homologated to and mounted in accordance
with FIA standard 8855-1999, or seats that have been certified to FIA.
Standard.8862-2009 or higher need not have the seat back attached to
the roll structure. Seats with a back not attached to the main roll hoop
or its cross bracing may be mounted on runners only if they were part
of the FIA homologated seats assembly specified in an FIA homologated
race car. The homologation labels must be visible. Seat supports shall be
of the type listed on FIA technical list No.12 or No. 40 (lateral, bottom,
etc). Passenger seat back–if a folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or
strapped in place.
Mounting structures for racing seats may attach to the floor, cage and or
center tunnel. Seat mounting points forward of the main hoop, between
the center line of the car and the driver’s side door bar and rearward of
the front edge of the seat bottom are not considered cage attachment
points in classes with limitations on the number of attachments.
A system of head rest to prevent whiplash and rebound, and also to prevent
the driver’s head from striking the underside of the main hoop shall
be installed on all vehicles. Racing seats with integral headrests satisfy
this requirement.
The head rest on non-integral seats shall have a minimum area of 36
square inches and be padded with a minimum of one inch thick padding. It
is strongly recommended that padding meet SFI spec 45.2 or FIA Sports
Car Head Rest Material. The head rest shall be capable of withstanding
a force of two-hundred (200) lbs. in a rearward direction. The head rest
support shall be such that it continues rearward or upward from the top
edge in a way that the driver’s helmet can not hook over the pad.
Click to expand...

Nothing I can see about FIA dates expiring requiring seat back braces.
 
blamkin86":3doe7c30 said:
Nothing I can see about FIA dates expiring requiring seat back braces.
Click to expand...

The seat itself has an expiration date for the FIA certification. While there is no SCCA date requirement, the FIA certification itself expires. At that point, the seat is no longer FIA certified in SCCA's eyes and thus requires a back brace.

FIA standard 8855-1999 said:
7. Seat life:
The usable life of an FIA homologated seat will
be 5 years from the date of manufacture
indicated on the seat label.

An extension of up to 2 further years may be
authorised where the seat has been returned to
the manufacturer for re-validation. Extensions
will be indicated by an additional label affixed to
the seat identifying the date on which the seat
eligibility ceases, and validated by the
manufacturer's quality inspection stamp.
Click to expand...
 
There's nothing in the rule about FIA certification. If there were, you would be correct. Once a seat is homologated, it can't be un-homologated (although as you point out its certification can expire).

If the intent is as you say, then the rule isn't clearly written. It should say FIA certified, not homologated.

Edit - sorry for some reason the language changes from homologated to certified, based on which FIA standard the seat is built to.

Maybe that's the intent???
 
In 2012 at Road Atlanta I crashed my GT2 Sunbeam Tiger into a concrete barrier sideways at 100MPH- not a glancing blow-a solid direct sideways hit. The Butlerbuilt seat in the car that was custom made for me in 1989 did its' job as I escaped with only a broken left ankle. Stupidly I was going to install the left leg brace before the next race. I had installed the shoulder bracing, head support and seat back brace supplied by Butlerbuilt. The impact did ruin the seat as the right rib support, shoulder brace and head support were all bent at a 45 deg. angle. 6 seat belt bruises were the only other notable issues except for me being knocked unconcious. ( those pesky G forces ! )

Proper seat installation is one of the most misunderstood and often botched aspects of race car preparation I have encountered in my years of doing SCCA tech inspections. Some of the most serious injury causing shunts I have been called on to evaluate have had absent or slipshod seatback bracing ( FIA seats included ). I really wish everyone would pay as much attention to driver safety/seat choice/seat installation as they do to engine or chassis prep.

Personally I will continue to use my "ribbreaker" ( really dumb remark ) type seat that has been proven to provide life saving protection in countless numbers of racing impacts.
 
More clarification.. There are two specs listed in SCCA's rules.. 8855-2012 and 8862-2009. Here's the second one, which states a 10 year life vs. 5 for the other spec. I'm not sure what the differences are between the specs. (not gonna read them all since I'm supposed to be working. ;) )

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... orm&lang=a
FIA_8862_2009 said:
11. SEAT LIFE
The maximum usable life of an FIA
homologated seat will be 10 years from the
year of manufacture. For example, a seat
manufactured on 1 January 2012 will be “Not
valid after 2022”; likewise, a seat
manufactured on 31 December 2012 will be
“Not valid after 2022”. Notwithstanding the
“Not valid after date”, a seat involved in a
significant accident should be withdrawn
from service immediately.
Click to expand...
 
Matt93SE":4vxix97u said:
blamkin86":4vxix97u said:
Nothing I can see about FIA dates expiring requiring seat back braces.
Click to expand...

The seat itself has an expiration date for the FIA certification. While there is no SCCA date requirement, the FIA certification itself expires. At that point, the seat is no longer FIA certified in SCCA's eyes and thus requires a back brace.

FIA standard 8855-1999 said:
7. Seat life:
The usable life of an FIA homologated seat will
be 5 years from the date of manufacture
indicated on the seat label.

An extension of up to 2 further years may be
authorised where the seat has been returned to
the manufacturer for re-validation. Extensions
will be indicated by an additional label affixed to
the seat identifying the date on which the seat
eligibility ceases, and validated by the
manufacturer's quality inspection stamp.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You can likely find similar rules for window nets and HNR from FIA/SFI, but we do not enforce those either. The CRB looked at doing exactly what you are claiming we are required to do (which you are incorrect about) back in 2010, go read the Fastracks from June to Aug. The Club is not going to tell you to modify a seat outside of its designed purpose/use.
 
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