Opening up regional racing entries to non members

James Rogerson

James Rogerson

Well-known member
In order to gain larger fields and reduced entry fees, I'm proposing the SCCA open up all our regional races to non members and their "home organization" car class. They get no tech other than safety and they aren't eligible for any points in the region or division. The Vintage guys tack on an additional fee of usually $75. As an RE and racer I don't see any issue other than someone at the National Office not getting a bonus based off increased memberships. Have to have an already approved license. If they wish to stay with our organization and participate in the points gathering, then they can join and make their car compliant.

If you want to increase participation this is a possible path.

Remember I buy insurance for racing. There is no requirement for memberships, just licenses and/or approval by the "race committee". By the way there is no insurance requirement for physicals either.

James -R
 
Is there a line to what kind of riff-raff would be let in? i.e. LeMons, Chump, K1Speed "license" holders? NASA, PCA, BMWCCA I could see. I'd be very wary of putting my car on track with someone who walked up to their first LeMons race and bought their first racing license the month before they decide to run SCCA.

I'm not opposed to others racing, but I am opposed to racing 'unknown entities' that have invested little more than $50 for a business card with fruit on it...
 
Matt, I thought you had driven a LeMons event. Apparently not. The guys that get penalized the most at the LeMons events at our track are NASA, CVAR, and SCCA racers. Mostly for contact and passing under yellow. Just saying. ;-)

But what I said was those licensed by organizations listed already in the GCR. I'd include any Vintage group as well.

James
 
James Rogerson said:
Matt, I thought you had driven a LeMons event. Apparently not. The guys that get penalized the most at the LeMons events at our track are NASA, CVAR, and SCCA racers. Mostly for contact and passing under yellow. Just saying. ;-)

But what I said was those licensed by organizations listed already in the GCR. I'd include any Vintage group as well.

James
Click to expand...

Not going to argue that point at all- I've heard it all at those races, and yes a good chunk of the lame excuses were from drivers that definitely know better. I've also seen some piss-poor drivers show up and buy into a crapcan event. After seeing them make one lap on track, I wondered how they were even able to get to the track without killing themselves.

If it's limited to GCR-listed organizations like NASA and CVAR, then I'm fine with it- but for regional-only races. not Rationals or restricted regionals.
 
Fellas....the GCR (3.1.5.C) already allows members of other clubs to race with us. With NASA, WHRRI and MC around here, we have plenty of non SCCA entrants. We're used to it.

But I'll draw the line at Lemons and Chumpcar-esque members. I've worked a couple of their events and I wouldn't feel comfortable on track with some of those folks. And, as far as I can tell, they have no real licensing plan.

Dayle
 
And Dayle lists the folks I mentioned. All I said was waive the membership requirement and raise the entry fee for that group without scoring championship points. If they like what they see, they just might stay. As opposed to, join or we won't let you play coupled with the great reputation the SCCA has for event administration. <tongue in cheek>


James
 
Just to be clear, a NASA (or other 3.1.5.C club) member can run our event (assuming his car is complant) under a weekend membership. It costs $15. We accept some logbooks too (WHRRI, MC) so an entrant may not need logbook and an annual to run with us.

Dayle
 
Doesn't just about anything fit in a catch all class like Super Production already? Can't pretty much anything meeting safety standards already run? Can't SCCA Vintage cars with "vintage" safety equipment already run if in their own group?

Although it hasn't been done to my knowledge, wasn't one of the stated purposes of a "festival event" to allow partnering with other clubs like say vintage, or a marque club, for special non-traditional events? Why none of these?

Personally I like being on track with members of my club accountable to my organization and run to those standards. I know other clubs and other insurances mostly do a great job but when you show up at an SCCA event I don't have to ask or check, I just know. I also like that everyone on track is either accountable to SCCA for their license or cleared by the Division Licensing Steward, and those guys are extremely generous in granting Regional licenses based on experience with other organizations these days.

Just suggesting that there is all kinds of flexibility now that isn't being taken advantage of. And if SCCA becomes only a points counter its over.
 
Dayle Frame said:
Just to be clear, a NASA (or other 3.1.5.C club) member can run our event (assuming his car is complant) under a weekend membership. It costs $15. We accept some logbooks too (WHRRI, MC) so an entrant may not need logbook and an annual to run with us.

Dayle
Click to expand...
Exactly. It has already been made very easy for most anyone with a license and safe car to get in. If you feel so strong about this James there is nothing stopping you, your track or your Region from covering this overwhelming $15 fee.
 
Curtis said:
Doesn't just about anything fit in a catch all class like Super Production already? Can't pretty much anything meeting safety standards already run? Can't SCCA Vintage cars with "vintage" safety equipment already run if in their own group?
Click to expand...

You are right on target. If a car is compliant then, yes, there are classes that a car can 'fit' into. We can waive a few things but safety issues are a 'no go'. Proper safety belts, H&NR, helmet, personal gear and other safety equipment (kill switches, brake lights, etc.) are a MUST. We cannot waive things like that.

The other clubs we deal with here in MI all have good rules packages (ours) but Chump and Lemons are woefully lacking in these areas (at least in some of the cars I've seen).

Dayle
 
I like the weekend membership angle. We typically only use that for workers.
The car classes are really not important until the entrant decides to run SCCA rules. T&S only cares if they have a number they can see and a transponder that matches their entry. F&C can either call in the class on the car or just number and color. Shouldn't really matter too much.

James
 
Jim

I like the weekend membership angle. We typically only use that for workers.
The car classes are really not important until the entrant decides to run SCCA rules. T&S only cares if they have a number they can see and a transponder that matches their entry. F&C can either call in the class on the car or just number and color. Shouldn't really matter too much.
Click to expand...

We already have the capability to permit a non-member driver to participate in our regional races with a Weekend Membership which costs $15. This assumes that the non-member has a license in one of the alternate organizations listed in 3.1.5.C and a car compliant with SCCA safety requirements. There are enough 'catch all' classes (SPO, SPU, ITE, FS) to allow most outside cars to race; if one doesn't exist, the region can create one. At NJMP, we probably average 3-4 such individuals at each of our regionals. I agree that it is in our best interests to be as inclusive as possible.

Terry
 
Perception, always interesting.
MY "Slightly truncated", Back ground; SCCA 35yrs, Chumpcar 4 yrs, Nascar ovals, 30yrs,
After running 12 Chumpcar events, with up to 3 cars with 4 drivers per car.;20 plus driver total.
The SCCA guys come in with CTC marks, abuse the car much more, pass under yellow much more, and jump out of the car to look at the timing board to see if they set fast lap. I have asked two to not come back.( One national champion hill climb guy)
Too fast, self centered, not team centered.
The Crap can guys are way more conservative, easier on cars, will wait for a nice passing opportunity, as opposed to jamming a car inside at the apex. ( slower)

The pro level drivers are about the same as the crap can guys, as far as consideration goes.
Each crap can race is 7 hrs or more. lots of seat time. Way more than a driver's school.

Fact is tho ; I have not run into any Crap can drivers interested in SCCA. ( and I try !!) It is all about seat time vs tow time. SCCA regional has maybe 2 hrs total time, with a 30 - 40 min race while crap can has a 7 hr race. SCCA cant compete. SCCA is actually cheaper per hr.

We are gong to run the Crap cans @ the PBOC 6hr night enduro. They wil take crap can drivers license with references.
Night enduro is a big draw for most of the Crap can drivers. Sprint races, not so much.
FWIW about half of my team of 16 drivers have had SCCA license, or are members.The 6 SCCA drivers that I still use, do very well @ both venues. One is nibbling on the track record @ Sebring, one is going to driver school soon, two race SM, 2 rent my HP cars.

I dont see why any of my Crap can guys should not receive a Novice permit upon entry to SCCA. . Porblem is, that only a few care anything about SCCA.
The 50 yr perception of SCCA that they have, along with a weekend devoted to a 30 min race, reduces the draw.
 
Although I completely agree that there are a lot of SCCA club racing folks that push the issue way beyond "reasonable" I don't think it's fair to compare "crap can" and "racing".

Any series where you can get on track penalties for not bringing the right brand of beer or for a "theme" that displeases the "stewards" isn't racing. I know that some of the crap can sanctioning bodies are not as ridiculous, but nonetheless, these series appeal to a different group of people than the SCCA.

The SCCA appeals to people who enjoy legit competition. To compete legitimately you need a level playing field (as much as that can be accomplished in racing) and you need genuine passion for competing. The SCCA provides that in the form of the GCR and the workers.

Crap can racing appeals to a more social perspective on motorsports. It's less about winning and more about the social experience. I can fully understand why some people favor this perspective. But the rules are just too loose to say "I won" with a straight face. At a crap can you can much more easily say "I had a great time".

Both perspectives are perfectly valid. What's not valid is comparing them on the same grounds (which is "better"). Kind of like comparing a Camaro to a steak. Both are great, but one will disappoint you if you were expecting a ride home or a good meal.

On the subject of how to improve the club, one thing I find interesting is that ability of club racers to hold a grudge against the club. I'm amazed at how often I hear stories from folks about situations that pissed them off that happened over a decade ago. Not saying that's wrong, just saying that it's unexpected (by me). For those of us still passionate about club racing, we need to make sure that we don't pass on this negative attitude. I honestly think that negativity snowballs better than snow. If we each make a point to look for the positives and to convey those both in person and online, we'd triple participation and not spend a nickel.

-Kyle
 
Protech Racing said:
I dont see why any of my Crap can guys should not receive a Novice permit upon entry to SCCA.
Click to expand...

So question has to be ask........How many of these have been denied an SCCA novice permit after joining, presenting a racing resume and results documentation, in addition to a few references? I am guessing none.

Again, as has been pointed out over and over, you can use a NASA license, you can use a vintage license, you can request consideration for previous experience, and you can run almost anything that will pass a thorough safety inspection. We even have a non traditional drivers school options that would allow the non SCCA racing event to be observed by an SCCA driver coach and count as an SCCA drivers school.

Somebody not willing to pursue such an easy, and reasonable process, either should be racing with some other organization they are more excited about (majority), or is just to lazy to accomplish anything in Motorsports (minority)
 
You are both correct.
We have never done the lemons/BS thing.
Chumpcar is real endurance racing. 14 hrs @ Daytona, 14hrs @ Sebring, good stuff. 25hrs @ Nelson, not for me.
SCCA has the best sprint racing. I respect each venue for what it is.
My point is that not many of the "crapcanners" seek the SCCA trail. Many have been down that path before and have re-prioritized .

The weekend pass has been discussed, but does anyone(outsideSCCA) really know about it??
People need to know the options. You have to preach to the congregation up the street.
For instance, We need some visibility at the Chumpcar/lemons races, touting this very option. (I would be happy to do it.paid)
The real problem that SCCA faces, is that we are run by volunteers. If we had a paid position for some visibility @ these venues, with $ incentive, then we could see some increased participation.
 
All valid points by Kyle and Mike (?).

As comp director for my region, I hear "I left SCCA for (fill in the blank) so I could get more seat time.". I can appreciate that. I like seat time too. But we can't run six hour enduros for 29 national or 44 (?) regional classes on a weekend. I've also seen lemons and chump events and there really isn't very much competition. Just cars driving around doing laps. Yes, some of the cars are well prepped and some of the drivers know what they're doing behind the wheel. But a lot of those cars are decorated with absurd crap and the drivers are five college kids with nothing better to do. Theyve watched some nascar and have GT on their xbox. Would I give one of them a novice license? Hell no. Are their guys who run chump/lemons are worthy of a novice license? Sure. But they're driving a car that has NO resemlence to any SCCA car. Does that skill translate?

So a group of guys get six, 10, 14 hours of seat time. But does this seat time generate the competition and skill I'd feel comfortable with on track? Maybe. If a guy uses chump or lemons to develop a set of skills that they want to bring to SCCA (along with a car that's compliant), I'm certainly willing to entertain waiving a school if they show me they know what their doing.

Having a safe race is a team effort. Everyone on track has to work together so that we all leave the track in one piece. Anyone who's willing to play safe is certainly welcome to come out and try.

For the record, I've never been approached by a chump/lemons driver who has asked about the path to an SCCA license. But I'm willing to listen if they do. I want more entries too.

Dayle
 
I'm not sure it is the membership requirement that keeps people away from SCCA regional racing. I got my SCCA Regional license in 2004, but have run exclusively vintage since. I am a SCCA member, could probably get re-licensed easy enough, and would like to run some Regionals. But SCCA rules would require me to put in a new cage, which just isn't going to happen. And this is a car that finished on the podium at the RunOffs three times from '78-'84. There are lots of barriers preventing people from participating in greater numbers.

Erik Wood
 
Short bio of 2 Chumper drivers,
Driver 1
Skip Barber 3 day racing school at Sebring - Mar 2010
Homestead Chumpcar - July 2010
Sebring Chumpcar - Sept 2010
Roebling Road Chumpcar - Jan 2011
Roebling Road Chumpcar - June? 2011
VIR Chumpcar - Aug 2011
Sebring Chumpcar - Sept 2011
Road Atlanta Chumpcar - Jan 2012
PBIR Chumpcar - Mar 2012
Daytona Chumpcar - May 2012
VIR Chumpcar - Aug 2012
Sebring Chumpcar - Sept 2012


10+ Years of HPDE at least one a month
2 Years Instructor at Hooked On Driving HPDE events - Current
Roebling Road Chumpcar - June? 2011
Sebring Chumpcar - Sept 2011
Road Atlanta Chumpcar - Jan 2012
PBIR Chumpcar - Mar 2012
Daytona Chumpcar - May 2012
Sebring Chumpcar - Sept 2012

Each Chump race is 7hr or more. These are guys that want to run the PBOC 6 hr with us.
 
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