March 2012 Preliminary Minutes and Tech Bulletin

Pam
Welcome to the prod forum.
Thanks for posting this and for taking over for Dave Gomberg as the Secretary for the CRB.

cheers
dave parker
 
OK , here we go again :
Proposed change for the HP Corolla :
2. #6778 (CRB) - January
In 9.1.5, HP, Toyota Corolla (71-74), add to Brakes Alt.: mm/(in.): “(F) 10.0 Solid
Disc Rotors and Calipers from 73 Corona”.

This what drives me crazy about the SCCA and the CRB /BOD !!!!
We have been asking for vented 9.4" stock VW rotors in place of solid 9.4 " ones FOR YEARS on the A1 chassis in F and H Production [ and G Prod, before its unwise demise ] and we were told the solid rotors were adequte for the car, even in F Prod trim, with even higher terminal speeds .
Nothing against Keith as he is a friend and fellow H Prod competitor, but what does the CRB have against the VW's ???????
Inquiring minds want to know !!!
BC
 
dryenko":1tjhjaki said:
OK , here we go again :
Proposed change for the HP Corolla :
2. #6778 (CRB) - January
In 9.1.5, HP, Toyota Corolla (71-74), add to Brakes Alt.: mm/(in.): “(F) 10.0 Solid
Disc Rotors and Calipers from 73 Corona”.

This what drives me crazy about the SCCA and the CRB /BOD !!!!
We have been asking for vented 9.4" stock VW rotors in place of solid 9.4 " ones FOR YEARS on the A1 chassis in F and H Production [ and G Prod, before its unwise demise ] and we were told the solid rotors were adequte for the car, even in F Prod trim, with even higher terminal speeds .
Nothing against Keith as he is a friend and fellow H Prod competitor, but what does the CRB have against the VW's ???????
Inquiring minds want to know !!!
BC
Click to expand...

It's probably partially my fault. It goes way back when I outsmarted a certain CRB member regarding the fuel injection in prod. I was going to put the Kugelfisher timed fuel injection on my Scirocco. The PCS said fuel injections systems could be substituted with the same type, electrical or mechanical. Well, CIS is a mechanical system so that's what I was going to do. He got wind of this (I probably opened my big mouth...dammit) and told me I couldn't. So I said why not? The rules said I could. If CIS isn't mechanical (CIS-E has some electronic control) then I'd just put a Haltech or some such electronic fuel injection/engine management on it. He said I couldn't do that either, CIS wasn't electronic.

So I said, which is it? If it's not electronic, then I can use the Kugelfisher. If it's not mechanical, then I can use the Haltech. I had him checkmated. Or so I thought.

The next Fastrack , the PCS changed to read "Electrical, mechanical, or CIS". Pure BS. And to punish me, he changed the spec line of my car to prohibit me using the fuel injection on the long stroke1471cc engine in G-Prod, even though it was on the same line as the 1457cc and the PCS usually allows interchange of parts on the spec line (update/backdate rules ... I had him there too until he nailed me). Look it up, it's still there (on the silly spec line for the 1457/1471cc VW in F-Prod that NO ONE WILL EVER RUN). I already had the engine built for G-Prod, but with a stroke of a pen my entire investment in that engine was wiped out, because he knew I'd never run the engine with the pathetic 2-bbl downdraft carburetor because no suitable intake manifold even existed. Thousands of $$$ wasted before I ever fired up the engine. :(

The egos in the volunteer driven sport are just pathetic.

I have retired from SCCA competition in part because of all this CRB rules silliness.

Y'all have fun, I'm going to continue to enjoy my other hobbies and enjoy life. Life is too short to be aggravated as a result of other peoples' incompetence.

MC

PS So to all VW Prod Racers who are stuck with CIS, I humbly apologize. It was my hubris that created this. Mea culpa. If I had just simply kept my mouth shut and simply did what the rulebook said I could do, it probably would be a lot different now.
 
dryenko":38nsux5n said:
OK , here we go again :
Proposed change for the HP Corolla :
2. #6778 (CRB) - January
In 9.1.5, HP, Toyota Corolla (71-74), add to Brakes Alt.: mm/(in.): “(F) 10.0 Solid
Disc Rotors and Calipers from 73 Corona”.

This what drives me crazy about the SCCA and the CRB /BOD !!!!
We have been asking for vented 9.4" stock VW rotors in place of solid 9.4 " ones FOR YEARS on the A1 chassis in F and H Production [ and G Prod, before its unwise demise ] and we were told the solid rotors were adequte for the car, even in F Prod trim, with even higher terminal speeds .
Nothing against Keith as he is a friend and fellow H Prod competitor, but what does the CRB have against the VW's ???????
Inquiring minds want to know !!!
BC
Click to expand...

Doesn't the proposed change identify an alternate "Solid" rotor for the Corolla? Where does it state vented? I'm just trying to understand how this corresponds to asking for vented rotors on the VW.
 
michael heintzman":1sziejhu said:
dryenko":1sziejhu said:
OK , here we go again :
Proposed change for the HP Corolla :
2. #6778 (CRB) - January
In 9.1.5, HP, Toyota Corolla (71-74), add to Brakes Alt.: mm/(in.): “(F) 10.0 Solid
Disc Rotors and Calipers from 73 Corona”.

This what drives me crazy about the SCCA and the CRB /BOD !!!!
We have been asking for vented 9.4" stock VW rotors in place of solid 9.4 " ones FOR YEARS on the A1 chassis in F and H Production [ and G Prod, before its unwise demise ] and we were told the solid rotors were adequte for the car, even in F Prod trim, with even higher terminal speeds .
Nothing against Keith as he is a friend and fellow H Prod competitor, but what does the CRB have against the VW's ???????
Inquiring minds want to know !!!
BC
Click to expand...

Doesn't the proposed change identify an alternate "Solid" rotor for the Corolla? Where does it state vented? I'm just trying to understand how this corresponds to asking for vented rotors on the VW.
Click to expand...

I think the point is that we've been asking for a little help for years on the front brakes. The car is very severely underbraked compared to its competition (especially in FProd) with those solid rotors. The vented rotors are a slip-on swap and would help alleviate the tortured front brakes on this car. They are the exact same size and would not increase the car's ultimate braking power at all, simply help keep them cooler longer.

Other cars in the class are getting larger rotors, which IS a performance advantage in two ways - (1) better overall braking performance on the front AND rear since now you can put a larger rear rotor on it AND (2) helps keep their brakes cooler due to the increased mass and thermal transfer.

How is that fair? :think:

That's what my Dad is pointing out.

MC

PS In ITC, I just used the rear bumpers of the Hondas when my brakes finally gave out. I have the crushed rear bumper mounts as trophies... :twisted: And if the brakes couldn't handle ITC racing, they sure can't handle Prod racing.
 
The Toyota caliper and rotor size are not the issue. The caliper mount was bending under use and stayed bent after use. Once we fully understood the problem we gave the car the other brakes that have better caliper mounting system. The VW brakes are seperate issue completely.
Chuck Mathis
 
c mathis":33416qy6 said:
The Toyota caliper and rotor size are not the issue. The caliper mount was bending under use and stayed bent after use. Once we fully understood the problem we gave the car the other brakes that have better caliper mounting system. The VW brakes are seperate issue completely.
Chuck Mathis
Click to expand...

Well, the VW calipers flex like crazy and make the pads wear funny. Maybe they need to be looked at too?

Aren't caliper mounts free in Prod?

:wink:

Mark
 
Agree with what Mark says. There is ample precedent in Prod for allowing limited brake upgrades on "underbraked" cars, usually (maybe always) involving fitting production parts from the same manufacturer.

IMHO, whether the improvement comes from caliper design, rotor diameter or rotor design, the idea is the same, production brake parts from the same manufacturer.

All that is being asked for by the A1 (Scirocco) VW guys is to use the same rotors as stock on the A1 Rabbit GTI (same chassis), same diameter as stock, just thicker and vented.

I have not run the numbers but can - the A1 VW must have about the most heavily loaded, in terms of axle load * dynamic weight transfer / swept area, of any active prod car.

Al Seim
 
Al - yes they bolt up, but they were not installed on identical Rabbits. The vented rotors came on Scirocco 2, GLI and GTI that had the 1.8 motor.

I think the issue on the VW is that the brakes that are there do work, even with higher speeds in F. The biggest reason is that they have the same thermal mass (at least the vented and solid ones that I tossed on a scale did), and thus if you manage airflow to them well - like Mark's excellent "can" system that he had on his car, they are fine.
 
Certainly not VWs on the same PCS line, or we would not have to discuss, we'd just use them. Rightly or wrongly, it seems like a less radical mod coming from a very similar car, even an option package difference vs a different chassis and era.

And yes, cooling ability is the critical difference. I have a similar brake can system to Mark, and as per another thread, I personally have not yet run the best pad materials (running Hawk Blue), but can assure you they are not fine as is. I also suspect that Mark's Dad, Bob, also knows about the cans but thinks the car needs more?

On a tangent - why do us VW guys feel the need to undercut each other's arguments? The other marques seem to stick together better..... Driving style can affect brake thermal loads too, I remember watching Don Barrack's HP car and thinking "he doesn't even need brakes" as he would pitch the car sideways at the end of the Mid Ohio straight.....

Finally - I'm not so sure that the load on an FP VWs brakes is in fact as high as on Bob Coffin's HP cars'. A 1663lb FP car may not be going sufficiently faster than a 2117lb HP car to be losing more energy to the brakes in the course of a lap...
 
As if there were such a thing as an 1663 lb FP VW...

EDIT: Are you talking with a driver, or without :)
 
Al Seim":1aq2w239 said:
On a tangent - why do us VW guys feel the need to undercut each other's arguments? The other marques seem to stick together better..... Driving style can affect brake thermal loads too, I remember watching Don Barrack's HP car and thinking "he doesn't even need brakes" as he would pitch the car sideways at the end of the Mid Ohio straight.....
Click to expand...

You call it undercutting an argument, I call it sharing information. You are correct that Hawk Blues won't cut it on these cars. DTC70s work well, as do some of the other more modern high torque pads. The bigger component IMO is the weight. Get it to weight, and use the right pads and the car seems to stop well.

The fuel injection thing I will admit is frustrating. It can be made to work adequately, but not to perform great - and that is with a lot of guys with a lot of experience in the system spending a lot of time on a lot of different ideas. The best solution is not great, and the typical solution is less good than that. It sure would be nice if the VWs could all just run the electronic fuel injection that was delivered on the later A1 convertibles. Has that letter ever been written?
 
Back in 2005 there was a proposal to alow all pord cars to go to FI. I asked the head of tech at the runoffs what the result of the proposal was and he replied that there was not enought interest. G
 
HOw about letting the VW guys run a Megasquirt? That would be such an easy installation. Or just let them run a real fuel injection like all of their competitors are doing? Making them run the CIS is just stupid. Get rid of the whole "mechanical vs. electronic" injection divide. If a car came with fuel injection, let them run any fuel injection system.

MC
 
Here is what we do for brakes on my car. AutoZone front calipers and rotors with Hawk DTC 70 brake pads. Use an old backing plate as a spacer be able to take up the space between pad and piston for the thinner rotors. I don’t seem to have any funny pad wear. Golf rear rotors with Willwood Dynalite calipers and the cheapest hardest pads from speedway so they don’t work, just want a solid pedal. The brake pedal is a Willwood dual master cylinder with .75 dia. front and 1.0 dia. rear master cylinders. I use braided hoses and a brake bias valve always cranked to the front. I don’t have any brake ducts at all. I do use wheel fans most of the time but it is no big deal if I don’t. I do carry some ballast at 1663 lbs but I am adding a dry sump system that will eat up the ballast. In 05, 06 and 07 where I finished 1st and 2nd two times in GP I ran about 5 races a year plus the Runoffs week. I would use a new set of pads for the week and a new set of pads for the race then I would use those two sets of pads for the whole next season. I would bleed the brakes at the Runoffs every year and that would be about it. Hope this helps the VW racers. If I can help in anyway let me know.
Thanks Chuck
 
Thanks for all the various inputs.
Chris, please advise what car make/ model / class you are running actively regarding the input you have given .
Also, the other point that wasn't made obvious, is that the Corolla in question is a REAR DRIVE race car.
How is it that this car can be considered for a possibe upgrade, when it can't possibly have the front brake loading that the VW's have?
And, if I am not mistaken , the 1.8 L VW in F Prod has to weight around 1850# with driver, which is SIGNIFICANTLY more tan 1663# of Chuck's car.
BC
 
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