Ken Brown photography

blamkin86

blamkin86

Well-known member
I got an unsolicited package from Ken Brown with runoffs photos in it while I was on vacation this week.

I probably don't have to tell anyone, but - in case you aren't aware - this type of phony invoice is a violation of USPS regulations
http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/dmm_old/C031.pdf

Code: 
Any otherwise mailable matter that reasonably could be considered a bill, invoice,
or statement of account due, but is in fact a solicitation for an order, is nonmailable
unless it conforms to 1.2 through 1.6. A nonconforming solicitation constitutes
prima facie evidence of violation of 39 USC 3005.

Anyway - if you get anything from this guy, you don't have to respond, or send the pictures back, or pay him anything.

I'm going to eMail him and ask to be removed from whatever list I'm on. If I get any grief I'll just take all this stuff to my local post office and file a complaint.

I assume the SCCA, or RA, or the region hosting the runoffs - sold or gave him my home address. That's a separate issue. I'm going to send (yet another) note to the CRB asking how my personal home address left the SCCA and went to a solicitor.
 
Hi Bill,
Thank you for submitting a request/input to the Club Racing Board. The details of your request can be found below.

Letter ID Number: #9541
Title: Personal Information being given to solicitors
Class: EP
Request: This week I received a phony illegal "invoice" from Ken Brown photography, including pictures of my car at the runoffs. What's concerning to me is, I've never met the man, and yet somehow he knows my home address.

Can you guys explain how this solicitor was able to gain access to my personal information?
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Gee, I don't think this is a problem to get too worked-up about. There are several of these photographers that follow our events and take photos. I have agreed at events in years past to see or receive proof photos for my possible purchase. I never kept track of these agreements, but didn't worry about it either- I think it was just permission to send me proofs for my review.... However, I did end up getting some great photos of me in action at the Runoffs - and happily bought some- including from Ken Brown! It is "possible" that you gave some sort of permission while you were registering with the SCCA or for contingency offers- maybe? These photographers are just trying to make a living. I don't believe they will sell your bank account or Social Security Number to the Nigerians. If you really don't want ANY of the photos, just politely send them back with a "no thanks" note. It might cost you a few dimes for postage, but then you know the concern is over. I suggest you not take drastic action on the matter. Joel
 
I had a similar situation where a couple photographers sent proofs. Not a big deal until they started sending invoices for the unsolicited photos. Then it turned to 'pay or return' nasty invoices.
I sent them back COD. Cost a few bucks, severed potential relationships (i used to buy occasionally) and ended the problems (one of them actually paid the COD! LOL).
More fun than wasting time complaining to the PO.
 
Wow, first time you received photo's from a track photog? Don't assume the SCCA or track gave information out, in case you haven't noticed it's easy to get mailing info these days. First off anyone can obtain an entry list. This has been going on for years. Send them back, or keep them or....... Lighten up this is no big deal to get your whities all in a wad.
 
i don't mind the "first" attempt, but some of the 2nd and 3rd "late" attempt invoices are a little over the top.
 
I actually started coaching them. I mean how many turn one photos do I need?

I would tell them where to shoot and what kind of shots. That way I was getting what I wanted and they were getting what they wanted.
 
I just ignore them. I have a stack of unopened envelopes of pictures. Probably 10 of them. Someday they will stop sending them.
 
Roz, used to do this at the MO runoffs, they were not proofs, but actual pictures, even had 1 8x10 in the envelope, with invoice demanding payment, or return. The first year, I gladly bought them and thought nothing about it. The following year I got the same sort of pictures, looked alot like the first ones I had got, and didn't really want to pay the "demaded" $60 for them and it explained I could send them back, so I called Roz, and he said I would have to pay for postage, that kinda turned me, off and then reminded him of federal mail laws, long story short I refused to return them on my own dime. Roz told me he would take me off the his photo list, and I ask him to do so, then 2005, this dim-wit took photos of me again, and I kept them as well, some people never learn, we have laws for reason.

The all time best was when I got a framed poster size frame of a article I had written for Classic Motorsports magazine, I contacted CMS about it, they knew about the the guy doing this, but did not endorse it. The catch was, there was $185 invoice included with framed article, and to ship it back was like $30 on my dime. I called the guy and reminded him of federal mail laws, tried to work out some sort of deal with him, he got nasty and told me he would send me late invoices with late charges, and talked to me like I was a dog, so I let the federal mail laws teach him a lesson, I kept the damn thing, screw the dumb bostich.

I see no problem with track photographers sending someone proofs (marked proof) in an attmept to sell one photos, but to send someone a evenlope full of photos, or framed photos and then demand payment, well thats wrong and illegal, and one would have to be a complete dumbass to do such a thing to begin with, calling it a bone head business move would be a understatement.

Today there are ways to market track photos better than this lame attempt, you can use a website for example, website are cheap these days, and the customer can pick the photos he wants. There is absolutely no reason for a photographer to send someone photos , then demand payment , or the customer to send the photos back on your dime, it's stupid and illegal. Bill is 100% right, the guy is breaking the law and has no right to do what he is doing. Bill if you take this stuff to the post office, and file an offical complaint, he will more than likely be warned, and if he continues, he can be charged with federal mail fraud. Either way, by the federal laws, the photos are your's to keep.
 
I've gotten them a couple times. Usually they ask for a couple bucks a pic or "what you think they're worth". Some guys even offer them online for free.

Just like in the real world, it's best to not let the bostiches grind you down.
 
blamkin86":3sxsbtw6 said:
I got an unsolicited package from Ken Brown with runoffs photos in it while I was on vacation this week.

Anyway - if you get anything from this guy, you don't have to respond, or send the pictures back, or pay him anything.

I'm going to eMail him and ask to be removed from whatever list I'm on. If I get any grief I'll just take all this stuff to my local post office and file a complaint.

I assume the SCCA, or RA, or the region hosting the runoffs - sold or gave him my home address. That's a separate issue. I'm going to send (yet another) note to the CRB asking how my personal home address left the SCCA and went to a solicitor.
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I got the same thing back in 2010, it only took one phone call to ensure I did not get unsolicited images from him again, not a big deal.

I also know from the 2010 experience that he did not get my address from the Club or Road America. I have an address I use for mail I want to get, and another for mail I don't, he had the spam address. :ask:
 
Do not ignore them. They are bills and can be sent to collection and screw up your credit rating. Just make a nice call and ask to be removed. They will do so.
 
Protech Racing":2ut0ffu1 said:
Do not ignore them. They are bills and can be sent to collection and screw up your credit rating. Just make a nice call and ask to be removed. They will do so.
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How do you figure? It is unsolicited business. There is no contract for his services. He does not have a leg to stand on, and the longer he continues to operate in this fashion in the age of the internet the smaller his customer base will become. There are threads like this about him all over the web from other events he shoots. Most people do not respond to gorilla marketing, even less so when the bill comes attached.
 
Protech Racing":3t83z87r said:
Do not ignore them. They are bills and can be sent to collection and screw up your credit rating. Just make a nice call and ask to be removed. They will do so.
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Acme Speed Shop":3t83z87r said:
There is absolutely no reason for a photogopher to send someone photos , then demand payment , or the customer to send the photos back on your dime, it's stupid and illegal. Bill is 100% right, the guy is breaking the law and has no right to do what he is doing. Bill if you take this stuff to the post office, and file an offical complaint, he will more than likely be warned, and if he continues, he can be charged with federal mail fraud. Either way, by the federal laws, the photos are your's to keep.
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Hap you are 100% correct. I am not letting this go. It's illegal, and a really shitty way to do business, and as you suggest, completely unecessary.

If this guy wants to smoke a joint in the privacy of his home, who cares. He's trying to bully me and dozens of others into sending him money. BullSh!t. I'm doing this for all the people who just went ahead and sent this guy money to make him go away, even though they did not want the pix. If you think it's ok, then I'll be happy to send you a poem and an invoice. I need to pay for the runoffs. Still seem cool?

Progress:

1) I eMailed the guy, and politely (really) asked to be removed from any further solicitations. He responded that I've been added to some "do not photo" list.
2) The guy did not formally say I didn't owe him any money... therefore I'm not letting this go.
3) I am meeting with the postmaster tomorrow on my way in to work, with the envelope and contents, to file a formal complaint.
4) I filed a complaint with the FTC. Here is the URL if you want to do the same: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/F ... px?Lang=en
5) I got this response from the CRB:
Your recent submission to the Club Racing Board letter system does not have any content relevant to the CRB. I have forwarded your information to the membership department, where hopefully someone can direct you to a more official answer. It is my understanding that the SCCA National Office does not release personal information under any circumstances.
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So, at least the SCCA is doing the right thing.

Yay, another windmill. In other news, I have better things to do and am not losing any sleep over this guy. Don't let anyone bully you.
 
Jason@SportsCar":2nviah29 said:
How do you figure? It is unsolicited business. There is no contract for his services. He does not have a leg to stand on, and the longer he continues to operate in this fashion in the age of the internet the smaller his customer base will become. There are threads like this about him all over the web from other events he shoots. Most people do not respond to gorilla marketing, even less so when the bill comes attached.
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Two things here

1) The FTC recommends that you request a copy of the original order. Of course in this case there isn't one - since I don't know this guy from a CRB member.
2) I think it's extremely easy to jack up someone else's credit report - so I do take this seriously.

Furthe reading, for the windmill chasers:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consume ... pro15.shtm
 
You have his name and address. Go to the magazine rack at you local porn store. Take out all the subscription applications and fill them in with his information and mark "Bill Me". Mail them in to the magazines.

Sleep peacefully for eternity.

James
 
Protech Racing":3vop7dpc said:
Do not ignore them. They are bills and can be sent to collection and screw up your credit rating. Just make a nice call and ask to be removed. They will do so.
Click to expand...


Not even remotely correct. For someone to interact with your credit record, you have to have contracted credit with them, and they would have to have sensitive info, like you SSN. For example, a mortgage on your home, a car loan, a credit card, so-on, not a guy at the track taking pictures of your race car.

Make no bones about, what this photograher done is illegal, and protected by federal law. Bill is 100% right, it is a shitty way to do business, and illegal. It amazes me how most people seem to know how to buy, buy, buy, but most have no conception of sales and proper marketing. The way for these track photophers to make sales these days is simple, thru a website. It takes folks standing up to these folks to make them stop their illegal business habits.

No, none of this is worth blowing a fuse over, For me, I just told Roz what he was doing was illegal and he had to biggest dumbass in the world to not know about federal mail laws, he knew, he just tried to play stupid, a real shame since he is a very talented photographer, but that did make what he does right. I told Roz, you can send my all damn picture you want, even after I told you not to, and I'll will galdy keep them to prove to you, the law is on my side. Bill taking this to the next level is actually a good step in stopping this BS, I think most people don't complain, because they are just glad to have photos, but this still does make thier business practices right, or legal. One does not have to be pissed off, or mad to report a busienss to the authorities for illegal business, I commend you Bill for what you are doing, someone has to stand up for what is right, and legal.
 
Agree with Hap. I had problems with roz also. I did just what hap said send all the unsolicited pics you want, they will not be paid for & I will not send them back on my dime. I have had photographers send photos for free throughout the years.

As for the "credit score" Don't get all wrapped up in it. It should be called DEBT SCORE. You can't get a credit score without being in debt ! Don't you find that a little weird? .
 
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