It looks like I will miss next years F/P race too

[RICK HAYNES]

I guess we have ruling class's answer about any improvement in the midgets future in SCCA..Despite the information I would hope the SCCA ad-hoc and CRB has see on the decline of MGs and Sprites in the 3 class they are in , nothing was done last fall to improve the situation. I little wonder what would have been the CRB's reaction, or the BODs for that matter, had the MIata started disappearing at the same rate. I just wish the midgets had a inside advocate such as the lotus did in the past. So as someone wrote, I will take my marbles and go home ,[ what a stupid comment by a unnamed source] or at least I will race them somewhere else.

 

[Ron Bartell]

Rick - Did you get an official response to your request for something to be done?

 

[RICK HAYNES]

No, nothing from the CRB. I sent it to the CRB chair a Mr. Wheeler but Steve Harris told me the CRB has too much work to do so they have no time to be pro-active about general problems like this. I do not intend to send a " please help my F-P midget letter' The problem is bigger then just me. The CRB and the BOD needs to recognize that and do something about it.

 

[Chris Schaafsma]

So - you are upset that the CRB, which is a group of volunteers that are in fact busy responding to member queries, did not read your mind and respond to a query that you did not in fact make?

The whole point of the "letter" submission system is to get the issues important to the membership on their agenda. If you choose not to use the system, don't expect the issue to be on the agenda.

I'm not saying that you are right or wrong in whatever you are dissatisfied with (I agree that more cars racing is better than fewer), just that the process you are using will always end with the issue not being discussed and/or addressed when you would like.

 

[S. Henry]

I little wonder what would have been the CRB's reaction, or the BODs for that matter, had the MIata started disappearing at the same rate.

SM dropped from mid 60's to mid 20's from 2010 to 2012 runoffs :mrgreen: sorry couldn't resist...

 

[James Rogerson]

I sold my SM the first time it was a national class car at the very first publication of FasTrack. When you can find a Spec Spec Miata class in regional racing you just know something is terribly wrong with the process.

James -R

 

[RICK HAYNES]

This is the letter I sent to SCCA and to who;



To the CRB, prod-car ad-hoc
Have you noticed that there were no midgets or sprites at the runoffs in GTL, only 2 in F/p and 6 in H/p? And nobody is competitive in any of the classes. A very short time ago these type of cars filled grids from coast to coast in National and regional racing and there was a substantial presents at the runoffs in their classes. More important they were competitive in those classes, but no more and most of then have quit SCCA. They still fill the grids at vintage races so don't assume all these people have quit racing. This is not by accident, it is because the consolidation of the production car class have left us with no place to run competitively and the CRB and ad-hocs have done nothing about it. The 2 key elements in car performance are weight and horsepower. The sprigets specs. in SCCA now give them too much of the 1st and not enough of the 2nd. You need to do something about that problem before they all quit.
Rick Haynes

Chris, Do you believe this was adequate to make the point? Who else should I have sent it to?

To S.Henry, My problem with SCCA is what I see as a lack of concern that 2 makes of cars are disappearing from club racing and nothing is being done about it. The drop in cars in SM I am sure has been noticed by the club but overall Mazdas are doing very well , as in the Miata has it's very own class and the car is kept competitive in E/P,F/P and GTL. Do you have any illusions that is just chance and SCCA doesn;t have an intrest in making sure it stays that way. I know there are a lot of very talented drivers in Miatas and that's one of the reasons they win but they wouldn't be in Miatas if they didn't think the car was competitive.

 

[Chris Schaafsma]

I think that letter communicates your point. Did you send it as a personal letter/email or submit it through the CRB link at the SCCA website? The latter will automatically forward it to the PAC and CRB members and get it onto the PACs agenda. The former will rely on somene else deciding to do the latter sometime.

 

[toolatesmart]

A chairman of the Comp Board (pre CRB) a long time ago, preached his belief that the boards and the BOD should never dismiss, read screw with, the embedded base of licensed drivers. He is no longer with us, but his assessment was extremely valid. Not employing this philosophy, has diminished the number of cars that were the backbone of club racing. The cat is out of the bag, and long gone. I doubt the club will recover those lost memberships any time soon, if ever. There are too many alternatives to SCCA, that offer a place to race. They may not have the Runoffs, but they do provide enough races within a reasonable tow area, reducing the cost of racing. These organizations are not encumbered with large staffs to support, nor do they heap on the backs of their drivers the costs of other unprofitable activities. When divisions spanned from Canada to Mexico, the number of racers who could make those long tows were slim. That meant racers tended to stick closer to home. The result was the splitting of extremely large divisions into manageable areas. It would seem those who now guide and make the rules for Club Racing have a short term memory.

 

[Acme Speed Shop]

There are too many alternatives to SCCA, that offer a place to race. They may not have the Runoffs .

That's getting ready to change, and it could , if there were enough interested people, include classes like production,and GT in those plans. SVRA is starting a SCCA-ish type group, meaning a national coast ot coast group, with standardized-enforced rules, and have a national championship season ending race, in which national champions will be crowned.

OK with that being said, there has been alot of talk about bringing more modern prep SCCA prod/GT cars into vintage racing, and even now many vintage races allows such a car to enter their races. The general idea being tossed around for a class would be for example, go back to say 1985, or 1990 and freeze the rules, this would allow flared fendered, coil over cars, with dry sump, crankfire ignition, slick tired cars and such into the frey, but if you look at the freeze time , it would only allow cars that were in the prod classes at that frozen time, and not beyond, in other words, for example Rick's Midget would be welcome, but Greg Grauper's Civic would not be. Now, mind you this is not a migration into traditional vintage classes, meaning steel fender, DOT type tire vintage car, no this would be a separate class, SCCA prod/GT classes 1990 era as you knew it. It appears all the vintage groups want is someone to grab the bull by the horns, and get enough of these cars to come race. Almsot everyone I talked to in vintage , says "get them to come, and we'll make the class for them to run in". With Tony P. buying SVRA and his nationwide plan, and runoff style race and championships, the time is now for guys with these cars to approach him, and get the ball rolling

I think alot of folks in vintage recognized the importance of the history of cars of this more modern era like Rick Haynes' Midget, Steve Sargis' Spitfire, and Joe Huffaker's Mini , some of these cars are still being raced in the SCCA, most are not. Now if a new home is created by SVRA that leads to a runoffs type national championship race, then this creates a new era for these cars to compete in, then no harm, but the SCCA cannot deliver on this, ever. Think about it , if the SVRA were to look at such classes, and include classes for more modern prep prod cars, now that old Midget, Alfa, MGB, or Datsun Roadster sitting in your garage, just doubled in value.

Here's another thought, as late as the early-mid 00s, there were more Spridgets in three prod runoffs classes , than any other make of car in the runoffs in all runoffs classes combined, and yes that includes Mazda. Where are these cars now, and where does their future lie?

Maybe you cannot turn back the hands of time back within the SCCA, but the SCCA is not the only choice anymore, just one of many choices.

Food for thought gentleman.

 

[racingspridget]

What an irony that non SCCA sanctioning bodies recognize a market and are developing classes for older SCCA prod cars while SCCA leadership can not bring themselves to admit they may have erred and refuse to do anything to bring those customers back. Not that anyone who has left SCCA for vintage would want to go back. Last year most large vintage races had more cars in the race group that contains these cars than the total entries of a SCCA Majors event. There would be more old Midgets and Sprites alone than the entire EP ,FP, HP, race group of those Majors events. Maybe Mark Coffin could make a pole for us to vote.......Is SCCA's decline caused by leaderships A. Arrogance, B. Stupidity, C. Pride, or D. All of the above?

 

[Mark Coffin]

What an irony that non SCCA sanctioning bodies recognize a market and are developing classes for older SCCA prod cars while SCCA leadership can not bring themselves to admit they may have erred and refuse to do anything to bring those customers back. Not that anyone who has left SCCA for vintage would want to go back. Last year most large vintage races had more cars in the race group that contains these cars than the total entries of a SCCA Majors event. There would be more old Midgets and Sprites alone than the entire EP ,FP, HP, race group of those Majors events. Maybe Mark Coffin could make a pole for us to vote.......Is SCCA's decline caused by leaderships A. Arrogance, B. Stupidity, C. Pride, or D. All of the above?

Hey! How'd I get dragged into this? :ask:

Since I no longer own a racecar nor am I a member of the SCCA, I'll defer and let you guys tilt at that windmill. :war:

As Pops Dewhurst always says, "Have fun"!

MC

 

[racingspridget]

Come on Mark, you know you want to........... Based on the just received pm from the same steward who told me i need to build a new car if I want to race with SCCA I guess I'll vote for A. arrogance. According to him it's my fault for not voting for the right candidates. Wait a minute.......I don't remember seeing the candidates for CRB or the ad-hoc committees on the ballot.

 

[Mark Coffin]

Come on Mark, you know you want to........... Based on the just received pm from the same steward who told me i need to build a new car if I want to race with SCCA I guess I'll vote for A. arrogance. According to him it's my fault for not voting for the right candidates. Wait a minute.......I don't remember seeing the candidates for CRB or the ad-hoc committees on the ballot.

Apparently I missed that memo too. When I think of the guys i used to race with in GP , Kent built a new car, Bobby built a new car, Brian built a new car, Chuck built a new car, Jon built a new car, hmmm...I see a pattern here. I refused to build a new car and got left behind like the Spridgets, the Toyotas, and the 510s.

If I come back to racing, it'll be in vintage. They throw better parties and seem to actually have fun, right Hap? :mrgreen:

MC

 

[racingspridget]

Maybe the BOD should call the White House and get some of the next $500,000,000,000.00 of stimulus money sent to all the old prod drivers. Just think of how many people they could put to work.

 

[Chris Schaafsma]

Come on Mark, you know you want to........... Based on the just received pm from the same steward who told me i need to build a new car if I want to race with SCCA I guess I'll vote for A. arrogance. According to him it's my fault for not voting for the right candidates. Wait a minute.......I don't remember seeing the candidates for CRB or the ad-hoc committees on the ballot.

Apparently I missed that memo too. When I think of the guys i used to race with in GP , Kent built a new car, Bobby built a new car, Brian built a new car, Chuck built a new car, Jon built a new car, hmmm...I see a pattern here. I refused to build a new car and got left behind like the Spridgets, the Toyotas, and the 510s.

If I come back to racing, it'll be in vintage. They throw better parties and seem to actually have fun, right Hap? :mrgreen:

MC

But didn't Chuck build the same car you had?

 

[Mark Coffin]

Yes, but he built it light from the start. When I built mine, the spec line was 2090 lbs...so we put in lots of extra cage and didn't make an effort to make it come in at 1400 lbs w/o driver.

So in essence I would have had to start over and build a new car. And if I was going to do that, it wasn't going to be another 1600cc, 8-valve, non-crossflow FWD car with a prehistoric suspension and tiny solid brakes in FP. Racing against the Stig in my own backyard (a.k.a. David Bryson). So I threw in the towel. :wink:

Have fun!

MC

 

[Acme Speed Shop]

If I come back to racing, it'll be in vintage. They throw better parties and seem to actually have fun, right Hap? :mrgreen:

MC

Yep, I have to say, I have enjoyed it very much. I am for sure not a SCCA hater, who went vintage racing, I love the SCCA and always will, I was just a guy who got a good deal on a good vintage car from a good friend (thank you Fred ) ,and that lead me down the path of vintage racing. It very refreshing to not be masterbating the rules all the time, that I do not miss about the SCCA. The racing is good, contrary to what you may have heard, it's real racing for sure, you got hot shoes like Craig Chima, Kent Prather, Rick Haynes, Charlie Guest, Joe Huffaker, etc., etc. , all doing vintage racing, so how lame could that be right. I'm just geting started in vintage racing, I've ran two events so far, my first race with was a VDCA event, wonderful group to race with, to be on the BOD, you have to be a active racer, how freaking cool is that, any changes in rules, protocol, are decided at the driver's meeting with a show of hands by the drivers. I had 14 cars in my class for my first vintage race, and my second vintage race was the Mitty at Road Atlanta, and I raced in a 63 car field. Oh and Mark is right, the parties have better grub, and beer. OH, and there are ALOT of familar faces throughout the paddock, most of my SCCA buddies are here now, and it is very doubtful, I would say that most would never come back to the SCCA, not because they hate the SCCA, well some do, but for the most part, because it is good racing without alot of baggage.

All it is going to take to get the vintage groups to allow say, 1990 era prod car into thier vintage race classes, meaning what everwas in the PCS in 1990, for EP, FP, GP (yes vintage still has GP) and HP, is a number of you looking for a new place to play. I heard from Scott Brown and Joe Huffaker that a West Coast vintage group is already formulating a race group for these era cars, HSR and SVRA are more than willing to this as well. So don't park them, come out and race vintage with them, you'll never have to worry about another rule change in your life.

 

[Jay Griffin]

So that's where Charlie Guest went. I wondered why I hadn't seen him in the past couple of years.

So Hap, what about some of the GT cars from the 80's? Not that it ever ran there but I'm pretty certain my CRX could fit within the 85-86 GT4 class rules (Peterson won the 85 Runoffs in one).

Just curious. :mrgreen:

 

[Acme Speed Shop]

So that's where Charlie Guest went. I wondered why I hadn't seen him in the past couple of years.

So Hap, what about some of the GT cars from the 80's? Not that it ever ran there but I'm pretty certain my CRX could fit within the 85-86 GT4 class rules (Peterson won the 85 Runoffs in one).

Just curious. :mrgreen:

Jay, most vintage groups, at most events will right now, would accept those cars, and put such a car in thier catch-all group, for most groups, that is group 8, Gary Johnson, Barry Perkins, Sam Halakis, and Andrew Wright are just a few guys I know, who have raced thier SCCA cars in vintage races, and I think most vintage groups are more than open to the mindset, bring enough cars, and we will make a class for you. Vintage racing is in a very progressive stage right now, now does not mean they are necessarly looking for a spec Miata class just yet, but the thistory of that later 70s and 80 is starting to be recognized, and can be a viable part of the future of vintage racing, if the people will bring the cars. For example Mark could have got his VW classed in Trans Am small bore as it was, he would been racing against the cars he raced with bascilly in GP, like 510s and such. I've seen IT7s and IT Z cars, and older IT cars racing vintage, as well.