Headlight and Marker Light Removal

Sterling

Sterling

Well-known member
This is a picture of the bezel-less plastic headlight and plastic marker light where they meet the plastic bumper cover.

Was told at this years PittRace Supertour by Tech that this needed fixed.
Was told would be fine for a class like GTL but not for Production. Needed to look separate instead of this one piece fiberglass assembly.

Was Tech Right ? Wrong ? Overreaching ?
What do you think and why ?


Here is the rule:
"Glass headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components must be removed.
Plastic headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components can be removed.
The headlight bezels/rims must remain in their stock locations. If the stock headlight, front
parking, side marker or signal light lenses/covers are removed the resulting openings must be
covered with wire mesh screen or solid panels of the same or a flatter contour than the stock
lenses/covers."
 

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Nice looking piece but in my opinion what they are looking at is the fact you what you have has replaced the bumper completely with what appears 2 pieces upper and lower.

It looks nice but I have sort of questioned how a lot of Integra front “air dams” are being made
 
This is the way my headlights and marker lights have been since day 1.... with the same exception Les points out.

The bumper has to be a replica of stock, plus an air dam. If I took off your bumper and put it next to a stock one, would it be a replica (plus addn'l air dam)
 
I had a similar issue with the hood on my RX7. The solution was black fine line tape to outline what would have been the separate headlight cover.
 
blamkin86":3u5gi9l0 said:
The bumper has to be a replica of stock, plus an air dam. If I took off your bumper and put it next to a stock one, would it be a replica (plus addn'l air dam)
Click to expand...

Ditto ^

Also:

I've been on a limb in the past and gotten knocked off. It's part of learning.

7. Bumpers that are integrated into the front or rear bodywork, can be replaced by replica compo- nents of an alternate material.

(The upper bumper portion shown is not a replica of the OEM bumper. The air dam shown is attached to a non replica of a upper half bumper.)

9. A front spoiler/air-dam can be fitted to the front of the car.

(The air dam is not fitted to the car, it's fitted in place of the lower portion of the bumper.)

A. The spoiler/air-dam shall not protrude beyond the overall outline of the body when viewed
from above, perpendicular to the ground, or aft of the forward most part of the front
fender wheel opening.

(Is the front of the bumper shown in the OEM longitudinal location?)
 
While a little picky, The problem is that the cover seals a body seam gap. Since you can't tape the edge of the hood or other gaps, you can't close the gap with a fabricated body panel.
I would cut the light covers away from the piece and then attach them to the center piece with a strip of aluminum and pop rivets.. This way you have the required a gap and can still remove it as one piece.
The CRB won't change the rule to allow your modification because it's open a can worms that might raise the cost of building noses for cars. (i.e.: one piece ala GT cars).
 
While I understand the point people are making about bumper replica's these are tangents from the original question.

Tony Gets the intent of the original question:
TONY MACHI":12k7564g said:
While a little picky, The problem is that the cover seals a body seam gap. Since you can't tape the edge of the hood or other gaps, you can't close the gap with a fabricated body panel.
I would cut the light covers away from the piece and then attach them to the center piece with a strip of aluminum and pop rivets.. This way you have the required a gap and can still remove it as one piece.
The CRB won't change the rule to allow your modification because it's open a can worms that might raise the cost of building noses for cars. (i.e.: one piece ala GT cars).
Click to expand...

But that leads to this question below

See part of rule in bold underline
:
"Glass headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components must be removed.
Plastic headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components can be removed.
The headlight bezels/rims must remain in their stock locations. If the stock headlight, front
parking, side marker or signal light lenses/covers are removed the resulting openings must be
covered with wire mesh screen or solid panels of the same or a flatter contour than the stock
lenses/covers."

So the interpretation is:
You can cover but the cover can not connect to any adjacent panel ( such as the air dam or bumper replica or hood or fender )
????
.
 
Ignoring the bumper for a moment…

It says “resulting openings.” There’s exactly one resulting opening when I remove my plastic marker lights and the adjacent plastic headlight. I covered that hole with a single panel.

The rule book says you have to cover the holes. Not how many pieces you have to use to cover the holes, or even that a separate piece has to cover each removed plastic part.

If I wrote a letter for clarification, I’d expect the prod board to roll their eyes. Come on people it’s this minutiae that keeps the stewards looking like they do.

Last year I had to add a bunch of weight to my car. I wasn’t aware I needed two bolts per weight. The steward showed me the rule, wrote it in my logbook and I fixed it before the next race. He has my respect and that’s imho how the club is supposed to work.

I’m so tired of the “gotcha” bullshit stuff with the scca. And it seems to be ignored and therefore tacitly approved at the highest levels too.

The coordinated effort to Eff with Jesse at Indy in 2021 still boils my blood. Someone's ass should be never working with the SCCA again, but instead, literally nothing happened.
 
Sterling":l89my0kp said:
While I understand the point people are making about bumper replica's these are tangents from the original question.

Tony Gets the intent of the original question:
TONY MACHI":l89my0kp said:
While a little picky, The problem is that the cover seals a body seam gap. Since you can't tape the edge of the hood or other gaps, you can't close the gap with a fabricated body panel.
I would cut the light covers away from the piece and then attach them to the center piece with a strip of aluminum and pop rivets.. This way you have the required a gap and can still remove it as one piece.
The CRB won't change the rule to allow your modification because it's open a can worms that might raise the cost of building noses for cars. (i.e.: one piece ala GT cars).
Click to expand...

But that leads to this question below

See part of rule in bold underline
:
"Glass headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components must be removed.
Plastic headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components can be removed.
The headlight bezels/rims must remain in their stock locations. If the stock headlight, front
parking, side marker or signal light lenses/covers are removed the resulting openings must be
covered with wire mesh screen or solid panels of the same or a flatter contour than the stock
lenses/covers."

So the interpretation is:
You can cover but the cover can not connect to any adjacent panel ( such as the air dam or bumper replica or hood or fender )
????
.
Click to expand...


What you stated above was my point but I didn't word things correctly. The other part that I was talking about is the flat air dam that most everybody is running that essentially eliminates the entire bottom half of the bumper.
 
The problem is that the design has incorporated the headlight panels into the front bumper cover. On the front of a DA Integra (90-93), literal linear feet of body gap have been completely remove from the front of the car by doing that. If the stock headlight assembly was still there, or a panel that is shaped exactly like the stock headlight assembly, then it would be illegal to tape up the gap between it and the top of the bumper cover.

I have the same issue with NA Miata's who use a hood that replaces the stock hood and both stock headlight panels. Where there use to be three stock body panels, they've been replaced with what's a single panel, and again linear feet of stock body gap are now gone.

Yes, pop-up headlights can be removed and replaced with something to fill the hole. Yes, headlight assemblies can be removed and replaced with something to fill the hole. But no where does it say those replacement panels can be molded into an adjacent panel, plus both taping up body seems and one-Piece front-ends are explicitly illegal. People can interpret all of this however they want, but then it's also up to them to prove that whatever it is they're doing is legal.

Personally, I continue to use a stock bumper cover and a fiberglass mold of stock headlight assemblies, with all the original body lines/gaps remaining. I then added a front air-dam that clips to the stock bumper cover, which is built to the limit of the front air-dam rules:
- Doesn't extend more than 4" above the hub center-line.
- Is entirely behind the vertical OE profile of the car, verified by running a plum-bob along the front edge of the stock bumper cover.
- An opening is cut in the exact shape, size, and location of the opening in the stock bumper cover that passes air through it (GCR definition of "grille". The stock one is right there behind it for reference.

Since I'm sure someone is going to either directly ask or just assume, no, I had nothing to do with this incident that David is referencing. I just happen to race one of these cars, have an opinion, and am sharing my interpretation of the rules and how I personally have chosen to approach them. I got approached too at PittRace because my air-dam had been bent up previously, wasn't straightened as well as it could have been, and did have a couple of spots that were failing a plum-bob test because if it. It wasn't a "gotcha" moment. It was an SCCA Tech Official going around and visually looking at cars and pointing out things that they wanted us to maybe take a second look at. No one got reprimanded, no one got it written up in their log book, just an FYI.

harvey":mpgq5fvt said:
The other part that I was talking about is the flat air dam that most everybody is running that essentially eliminates the entire bottom half of the bumper.
Click to expand...
See above. 100% legal to the rules.

9. A front spoiler/air-dam can be fitted to the front of the car.
A. The spoiler/air-dam shall not protrude beyond the overall outline of the body when viewed from above, perpendicular to the ground, or aft of the forward most part of the front fender wheel opening.

B. The spoiler/air-dam can be mounted to the body, chassis and/or frame and may extend no higher than four (4) inches above the horizontal centerline of the front wheel hubs. An intermediate mounting device may be used in locations where the front body-work is
above the four inch maximum.

C. The spoiler/air-dam shall have no support or reinforcement extending aft of the forward most part of the front fender wheel opening.

D. If the spoiler/air-dam covers any portion of the stock grille, an opening must be created in the spoiler/air-dam. The width of the opening must be equal to or greater than the widest horizontal measurement of the portion of the grille that would otherwise be covered. The height of the opening must be equal to or greater than the distance measured perpendicularly to the ground between the lowest and highest point of the portion of the grille that would otherwise be covered. The opening in the spoiler/air-dam must be symmetrically aligned in both planes of the grille.

E. Openings in the spoiler/air-dam are permitted for the purpose of ducting air to the brakes, radiator and/or oil coolers. Openings can be cut in the front valance to allow the passage of up to a three (3) inch diameter round duct hose leading to each front brake. These
openings can serve no other purpose.
 
kruck":1f782dij said:
The problem is that the design has incorporated the headlight panels into the front bumper cover. On the front of a DA Integra (90-93), literal linear feet of body gap have been completely remove from the front of the car by doing that. If the stock headlight assembly was still there, or a panel that is shaped exactly like the stock headlight assembly, then it would be illegal to tape up the gap between it and the top of the bumper cover.

I have the same issue with NA Miata's who use a hood that replaces the stock hood and both stock headlight panels. Where there use to be three stock body panels, they've been replaced with what's a single panel, and again linear feet of stock body gap are now gone.

Yes, pop-up headlights can be removed and replaced with something to fill the hole. Yes, headlight assemblies can be removed and replaced with something to fill the hole. But no where does it say those replacement panels can be molded into an adjacent panel, plus both taping up body seems and one-Piece front-ends are explicitly illegal. People can interpret all of this however they want, but then it's also up to them to prove that whatever it is they're doing is legal.

Personally, I continue to use a stock bumper cover and a fiberglass mold of stock headlight assemblies, with all the original body lines/gaps remaining. I then added a front air-dam that clips to the stock bumper cover, which is built to the limit of the front air-dam rules:
- Doesn't extend more than 4" above the hub center-line.
- Is entirely behind the vertical OE profile of the car, verified by running a plum-bob along the front edge of the stock bumper cover.
- An opening is cut in the exact shape, size, and location of the opening in the stock bumper cover that passes air through it (GCR definition of "grille". The stock one is right there behind it for reference.

Since I'm sure someone is going to either directly ask or just assume, no, I had nothing to do with this incident that David is referencing. I just happen to race one of these cars, have an opinion, and am sharing my interpretation of the rules and how I personally have chosen to approach them. I got approached too at PittRace because my air-dam had been bent up previously, wasn't straightened as well as it could have been, and did have a couple of spots that were failing a plum-bob test because if it. It wasn't a "gotcha" moment. It was an SCCA Tech Official going around and visually looking at cars and pointing out things that they wanted us to maybe take a second look at. No one got reprimanded, no one got it written up in their log book, just an FYI.

harvey":1f782dij said:
The other part that I was talking about is the flat air dam that most everybody is running that essentially eliminates the entire bottom half of the bumper.
Click to expand...
See above. 100% legal to the rules.

9. A front spoiler/air-dam can be fitted to the front of the car.
A. The spoiler/air-dam shall not protrude beyond the overall outline of the body when viewed from above, perpendicular to the ground, or aft of the forward most part of the front fender wheel opening.

B. The spoiler/air-dam can be mounted to the body, chassis and/or frame and may extend no higher than four (4) inches above the horizontal centerline of the front wheel hubs. An intermediate mounting device may be used in locations where the front body-work is
above the four inch maximum.

C. The spoiler/air-dam shall have no support or reinforcement extending aft of the forward most part of the front fender wheel opening.

D. If the spoiler/air-dam covers any portion of the stock grille, an opening must be created in the spoiler/air-dam. The width of the opening must be equal to or greater than the widest horizontal measurement of the portion of the grille that would otherwise be covered. The height of the opening must be equal to or greater than the distance measured perpendicularly to the ground between the lowest and highest point of the portion of the grille that would otherwise be covered. The opening in the spoiler/air-dam must be symmetrically aligned in both planes of the grille.

E. Openings in the spoiler/air-dam are permitted for the purpose of ducting air to the brakes, radiator and/or oil coolers. Openings can be cut in the front valance to allow the passage of up to a three (3) inch diameter round duct hose leading to each front brake. These
openings can serve no other purpose.
Click to expand...


OK understood
 
kruck":2oylfwd8 said:
harvey":2oylfwd8 said:
The other part that I was talking about is the flat air dam that most everybody is running that essentially eliminates the entire bottom half of the bumper.
Click to expand...
See above. 100% legal to the rules.
Click to expand...

You can add a flat air dam, but you still need the bottom half of the bumper behind it, IMO. You can't eliminate that portion of the stock body/bumper, which I have seen done, just because you have created an air dam that covers that area. The first time I recall this being an issue was with the original Todd Wheeler Bugeye bonnets that had the replica bumper incorporated. Someone in Tech noticed that they didn't have the bottom lip of the bonnet that was supposed to be behind the bumper. So there was an add-on piece of fiberglass made to make it legal. I recall some Rx7 bumpers had a similar issue about 20 years ago.

I'm not sure if it's Kevin or me that misunderstood Les's question, but the above quotes don't seem correct.
 
Bottom half of bumper discussion reminds me of the Valance needing to be there even though completely covered with a spoiler discussions of days gone by.

The 90-93 Integras are lucky in that they can acquire front bumper covers for less than $200. Not so for other cars.

Anyways, I'm already redoing the spoiler / splitter kit and kaboodle and that lead to the questions based on my personal experiences. I want it to be right.
However the covered but not connected to any other panels seems in conflict with what I recall seeing at the track.

In other words....
Right, what Kevin said
 
“the resulting openings must be
covered with wire mesh screen or solid panels of the same or a flatter contour than the stock
lenses/covers.”

Technically, it doesn’t say you can leave the gaps either.

In fact, I interpreted this as, the entire opening must be covered.

The rule book is tacit on combining one cover for two removed items.
However it very clearly says the resulting openings must be covered.

If someone cares enough send in a request for clarification. The rulebook isn’t quite long enough yet.
 
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