GTL- News from my engine builder

disquek

Well-known member
Sorry for the GT related post here. But the GT forum is all but dead, and most of the GTL folks are here. I'll pull it if there if enough folks are offended.

Just a happy data point.

I know there are many of you that see the SIR a hardship without an upside.

Here is why I see it as a savior of the budget minded racer.

I spoke to my engine builder this weekend. He'd just completed the analysis of the "spare" motor. I have two, and they rotate in shifts (usually two years).

It had no measurable wear in any part of the engine. Ring end gaps, bearing clearances, you-name-it ... nada, none, zip, zilch. My engine builder is a thorough as they come. He found nothing that needed replacement.

This motor was last in the car for the entire 2012 and 2013 seasons. I bought the car including both motors in 2008 (six seasons). This motor has been in the car for four of those six seasons. Since I bought the car it's been apart twice to look it over. The rings, bearings, pistons, etc are still same from when I bought it. It's only gotten new valve springs, and a new cam in four full seasons of racing!! It hasn't even needed the valves cut. Only lapped.

This is what the SIR brings to the table. Say what you want about the $300 cost to purchase the SIR and the time it takes to fabricate an airbox (a weekend). But the increase in service interval is awesome. Without this magical aluminum horn I would not be able to race in GT, prod, or any other development class. I simply could not afford the motors.

Back in the day, street cars needed lots of full tear down service. Motors were good for 80k, and every town had machine shops and repair shops that regularly built engines. These days, street car motors last more or less forever. And if they do fail, 90% of the time you're better off buying a good motor from a salvage yard than rebuilding the dead one.

So back in the day, building a race engine a couple times a season was easier. You had local machinists who were busy and happy to help.

These days, not so much. There are machinists, but they're fewer and less interested in racing. H*ll, I tried to find a place to re-core an old radiator (Super 7) for less than a mortgage payment, and came up empty.

Limited Prep is a great idea. But figuring out the VE of the many many combinations is next to impossible. The SIR is the same for everyone and provides exactly what LP was aimed at: parity and greatly increased service intervals. I'm not saying prod should adopt the SIR. I'm just saying that I'm glad GT did. It was painful at first, but it's really worked out for the best.

Honestly, it's a great time to be a racer! Now if we can only stop the rich folks from pulling the rug out from under us (Commode), we can enjoy this!

-Kyle
 
There is a radiator shop in Norsitown, near King of Prussia. I forget the name of the place, but you will pass it on the way to BUDZ motersports, engine shop.

I think we could have something similar in limited prep, with the airflow limited by the unported head. No need for crazy high RPM. Those engines could be reliable, with alternate rods, since some seem to have a slight weakness in that area. With Airflow limited, there are some limits on how much we can overstress or over work the engine.
 
Greg's Radiator & Cooling Systems
1460 E Ridge Pike, Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462
(610) 272-4009

It is on the corner of Ridge pike and school lane. BMS is about a mile down school lane, 377 school lane.

With the internet, I can find anything, well I knew where it was but fogot the name of the place.
 
Good info, Kyle.

Arguments about Miata rods aside, I think quite a few of the Limited Prep (L2) Prod engines are in the same happy place as your SIR GTL engine - ie they are strong enough mechanically to rev high enough to suit their limited breathing ability. IE you shift because the power's going away not because it would go BOOM 100 RPM higher. I think most - maybe all? - of the popular L2 H Production engines are in that category for instance.

Not saying that SIRs are bad - just saying that most LP Prod engines are quite durable and reliable if well built for very similar reasons. Very unlike my many-years-ago experiences with full prep Prod engines. Shudder!!!!

Al Seim
HP VW Scirocco 1.6
 
This is exactly what I proposed to the Prod Committee. Now lets see if there is any interest in actually having competition between different type of cars. Kinda tired of the 1600s just running away from the guys with the smaller motors. Horsepower is indeed controllable with a rational, relatively inexpensive option. Better competition brings enthusiasm and hope to all the competitors.

Jon
 
Jon, the first 1600 at the runoffs this year finished third to two "small engined" cars. Just sayin'. OOPs, that was in FP not HP, I stand corrected, thanks Kevin.
 
I'd say that most of the Limited Prep engines are pretty similar. I have no problem going multiple seasons without any need to freshen an engine.

little bill":3wwtbvgt said:
Jon, the first 1600 at the runoffs this year finished third to two "small engined" cars. Just sayin'.
He's talking about HP.

Jon - Just an FYI, the Honda's and Toyota that finished on the HP podium were all 1500's, and the only car's in the field over 1500cc finished 6th (BMW 1600), 13th (VW GTI), & 14th (Nissan PL510).
 
kruck":dpzwcr1b said:
Jon - Just an FYI, the Honda's and Toyota that finished on the HP podium were all 1500's, and the only car's in the field over 1500cc finished 6th (BMW 1600), 13th (VW GTI), & 14th (Nissan PL510).
That is because the VW of Chris Albin, which was running in 5th, fell back, and the one's of Kelley, Trainer, Pitts, and the 1500 Honda of Griffin stayed home.

Anyway, back on point, I agree with Al that the limited prep motors are just as good at minimizing rebuild costs as the GTL cars with SIR's. I just freshened up one of mine and could have re-used virtually everything. It is really amazing the life we can get out of parts compared to an 18:1 948 motor.
 
Ron, but the SIR is MUCH easier to police at impound than a limited prep motor, or even a SM motor.
 
Ron Bartell":3k3h39vq said:
kruck":3k3h39vq said:
Jon - Just an FYI, the Honda's and Toyota that finished on the HP podium were all 1500's, and the only car's in the field over 1500cc finished 6th (BMW 1600), 13th (VW GTI), & 14th (Nissan PL510).
That is because the VW of Chris Albin, which was running in 5th, fell back, and the one's of Kelley, Trainer, Pitts, and the 1500 Honda of Griffin stayed home.
I'm aware of who was there, who wasn't, how the race unfolded, who didn't finish where they probably should have, and what the make-up of the cars and their classifications involved were. As a PAC member, that's my job.

I was just trying to point out that it wasn't "1600s just running away from the guys with the smaller motors", that they weren't 1600cc cars. Wasn't trying to be condescending, just informative.....which I know is pretty futile on the Prod forum.
 
To be fair I wonder where my 1500 spit would have faired. I'm still developing a bit but think the package is decent. My biggest problem is the car is still temperamental but engines are lasting a couple seasons without issue.
 
Daytona should favor the twin carb cars. The Toyota 1.6 or VW 1.6 with twin webers make the most high RPMpower. They have the best intake sqMM/per cc along with a reasonable aero package. If i could afford the 2TC car,I would dump the money into it.
Alas; I have 2 good 1.8 L VWs and plenty of parts so I will spend the year making the best Daytona package with the megasquirt/tires/wheel size options.
 
Mike, you can't have twin webers on a VW 1.6 motor and be legal in H Production. FP yes, but not HP. The VW 1.6 in HP can only have a single side draft carb, limited to 32mm chokes
 
Tim -

Have a look at the Notes column on the 1588 Rabbit/Scirocco. Twin sidedrafts are permitted with extra weight. I'm reasonably certain that includes twin two barrel carbs such as Webers.

Al
 
Ah Thanks Mike, but it's only for the 1.6 Rabbit, the 1.6 Scirocco doesn't have the same notes. It also says that you can't convert the 1.6 Rabbit to rear disks. This is from the Aug 2014 version.
 
Tim -

I was looking ay May 2014 but have downloaded Dec 2014 and it's the same. Dec 2014 it's on P691 - 1588 Rabbit and Scirocco both have same note wrt allowing dual sidedrafts.

As for the brakes, I think someone just got lazy and typed "factory specs" instead of looking up the factory specs, I don't think this affects whether or not the car is allowed the same rear brake upgrade to discs that the PCS allows for all Prod cars.

Al
 
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