Fuel pumps that aren't crapola?

Matt Blehm

Matt Blehm

Moderator
When I bought the RX7, it had 3 carter external pumps on it. One fed from each side of the fuel cell to a swirl tank, then another from there to the engine.

Two of the three pumps were dead when I bought the car, so I replaced them with same. That was Aug 2014. Less than 20 hours of runtime later, both of the ones I replaced are dead already. Carter warranty is a year, so I'm up the creek with these things.

With that kind of reliability, I'm really not looking forward to replacing them with another $150 in pumps to maybe get another year out of them.
Any recommendations on something that's not crap?
 
Started out in the early '80s with the Carters etc. in our Porsche race cars and had the same problems. They introduced the Facet pumps about that time and I put a couple in one of the cars. Been doing Sprites since 1990, all with Facet 2-7 lb pumps, and haven't lost a one. Got one for a spare that we installed in one of the cars in 1988 and it still works fine. Use two of them in line as they will push/pull through themselves eliminating the need for two separate lines. We pull through a small bowl type filter and maintain any pressure we need with no problems.

Bob
 
Bob has it . I use enough Facets that the part # is next to the computer. 40106. Try "Aircraft Spruce" I use one from the tank, swirl pot ,HP pump( usually walbro 100psi.
 
Mike, why do you need that many if they aren't crapola? :mrgreen:

I got both Carters running today by tearing them down and using a drill and vacuum hose to spin the shaft for a while. electrical resistance went from 5meg to 16 ohms. I put them back together and back on the car, and they're humming away again. what a waste of 3hrs of my time. the last set of pumps on the car did this too..
 
The problem might be OE. Try installing the pumps inverted at a level equal or below the mid-line of your fuel cell. These electric pumps are designed to pump fuel up a hill as needed. They don't necessarily suck (pull) fluid up as well as they pump it. Expecting them to lift supply fluid more than a few inches is asking too much. Usually the instructions clarify how much the pump can lift (suction) a fluid. The best solution to this problem is to use the ATL "Black Box" intank pumps which employ a fuel pump at the bottom of the cell surrounded by a shallow trap tank with one way fuel trap gates to insure a constant short term supply of fuel to the pump pick up. Cost is about the same as the 3 pump swirl system you had and you can match the outlet pump pressure to the needs of your FI or carbs.
 
That's the same Facet pump I've had in my Wabbit for 10 years. I used it in between the cell and a sump tank, and now since I converted to carbs, I don't use the sump can any more, or the stock VW fuel pump. I do carry a spare "Carter" pump just in case.
 
Buy Holley Hydramat, install in bottom of fuel cell, run one pump to supply the engine, be done with all this swirl pot garbage. For the money you are putting into all of that plumbing and pumps, you could buy a piece of Hydramat big enough for the bottom of the cell and solve your fuel pickup problems.
 
I started using the Facet on the Chumpers as we needed to get all of the fuel out of the tank. The LP pump would make a lot of noise due to lack of pressure build into the swirlpot. These pumps are made in the USA and you can call the Co. and ask details. I called and the tech guy said that as long as i ran a prefilter, the pump would outlive me. making noise the entire time.

Keith is right . low is mount is better.
http://www.facet-purolator.com/cube-fuel-pump-kits.php
 
Their website is a bit confusing.. Their charts do not show flow rate at pressure, and considering my car burns ~5gal in a 30 min session at 3.5psi, (10 gal/hr) that makes it look like I need the biggest pump they offer (50GPH) once you de-rate to about 4PSI.

Currently the top of the pumps are mounted just about in line with the top of the cell. That puts max lift around 10" when the tank is empty for the two feeder pumps. As the main pump is fed pressure into the swirl tank, there's always a small amount of positive pressure shoving fuel into it.

Since everything is already installed, the expense is to just maintain the thing. with 3 pumps there's 3x the maintenance of a regular system, but I also hate to reinvent the wheel and spend money rebuilding something that's already working (other than the pumps themselves.)
 
Matt,let me get this straight. You spend maybe 600 -1000 for a race weekend and you are going to run fuel pumps that you have to kickstart?
Later , make sure that your tow hook works. :)
 
But I have a spare!! :mrgreen:

redoing the fuel system is a winter plan. Right now I just need to make it through the next race weekend. with 60+hr work weeks and sick kids at home, I don't have time to jack with much.
 
The facet pumps seem to be a good option.

One thing that could be a issue, how the pump is mounted. I once mounted a pump and the motor was supposed to be lubricated/cooled by the fuel running thru the pump, but the way I mounted it the motor ran dry. That didn't last very long...

Another thing, the pump (any pump) should be mounted as low as possible, ideally below the tank. If not below the tank, at least as low as practical.
 
Mounting below the tank would be a fire hazard. I could probably move them down a couple of inches to get them lower, but it would still make for a potential uh oh those times the car decides it wants to become an agricultural tool... another option would be check valves just before the pumps & filters so they don't lose prime. more stuff to break though!
 
Well yes, as low as practical, keeps the pump and all the fuel system inside the car.

I don't want any part of the fuel system below and exposed to hazards.

But still mount the pump as low as possible, pumps don't like to draw fluid up hill.

"potential uh oh those times the car decides it wants to become an agricultural tool..." Right the car decides to do that all on it's own, well actually the last time that happened it sure felt like the car took over. Speaking of agricultural tools, I feel bad for the guy that will mow the grass around the track, sooner or later someone will find that starter, can't believe I had a spare.

The paved surface sure is a lot smoother....
 
Hey, it's not like I WANT to spend my morning picking grass out of everything, but it happens to everyone eventually. (how many of the top 5 went agricultural at Runoffs?)

I'd rather plan for the inevitable than to be completely exposed and subject to damage when the grass hits the fan.

getting onto a tangent... I was working T7 at TWS for a vintage race a couple months ago. walked the field at corner exit- where cars regularly go off- I found everything from small shards of fiberglass to visor pieces, broken motorcycle parts (handbrake/clutch and a shift lever), lots of black plastic pieces with German manufacturer logos, and many MANY chunks of asphalt and rocks the size of softballs..
The scary part is I've been off at that corner and through that crap at 100mph, and thought it was relatively smooth. now I walk around and see the stuff that would be impossible for my car with 3" ground clearance to miss---unless it was airborne! 88-o

During my maintenance and prep for this week's race, I've uncovered many other little things I don't like about the car. The entire chassis wiring harness will be coming out over the winter and getting replaced with something that's not a fire hazard. With that, the 18AWG wire that's feeding all three fuel pumps-- WITH NO FUSES!-- will be replaced.
I cant imagine all three pumps like running off a single 18awg wire.. With the car off (system voltage around 12.5V) I was seeing 12.3V with one pump running, 12.1V with two, 12.0V with all three. it's "only" a 0.5V drop, but I can imagine when the pumps run longer and start getting warm that the current will increase and voltage drop will get worse. could be one of the problems causing the brushes on the motors to stick.
 
Hello, late to the game but wanted to throw my $.02 in. First post on this forum outside of classified stuff, mainly hang out on the GT-forums. Anyway, my suggestion would be a single carter comp pump with a holley bypass regulator and return feed to an internal fuel safe surge tank. The surge tanks are way over priced but I haven't seen anything else which compares. I ran this setup exact setup for 5 years, never had an issue, same carter pump the entire time. After installing the surge tank I never had fuel starvation issues again either:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... aQodFCMIKg

Also, dead heading the fuel line adds additional stress to the pump and shortens its life too. As for pump gas doing this too, no idea, but I'm betting it'll last longer regardless with this setup.
 
Fuel regulator is an Aeromotive adjustable return-style unit, so the fuel pumps aren't at least dead-heading. The swirl tank also has a vent in the top of it going back to the tank, so those pumps are pretty free flowing- almost zero pressure on them.
I think my biggest issue was the car sitting so long between races. I sat out the August divisional this year, which means the car sat for nearly 6 months between races. While I wouldn't expect an electric motor to fail after 6 months of sitting, I will certainly agree that's not regular use and is a somewhat valid reason the pumps failed.

The fuel cell itself is getting long in the tooth. whenever I change it out, I'll redo the plumbing on the whole system and add a hydramat or an in-tank surge tank. until then, this system still works- just needs a kickstart after 6 months of sitting.
 
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