Fuel lines in driver compartment

Joe Boruch

Joe Boruch

Member
A friend that races a Mustang in Champcar and SCCA, which I also drive in enduros, is trying to navigate between the 2 organizations the running of fuel lines thru the driver compartment. Running them under the car is not an option due to proximity to the exhaust.

SCCA requires that the fuel line be steel or braided hose. Champ requires a "metal" line or if SS braided hose that it be enclosed in a conduit. We had run a nickel copper line to satisfy Champ, but then realized that SCCA says "steel" line. The ni-cu lines are easy to bend and flare and seal very well.

So the question is; if we ran the ni-cu line inside of an aluminum conduit that went thru the fire wall and the rear bulkhead, would that meet SCCA? If not AL conduit, what about a steel (EMT) conduit? Would the conduit be considered to be a separate compartment? Or maybe we need to scrap the ni-cu line and run steel tubing? Stainless tubing is available in 3/8, but is is difficult to work with.

Any thoughts?
 
Joe - Ohh the joy of trying to satisfy two sanctioning bodies. What about a steel tube with a braided line running thru it? Is your fuel line a -8 ?
I am a big fan of braided lines so that is my poor idea. Or.....just build two cars!!!
ez
 
The specific reg.

9.3.27. FUEL, OIL, AND WATER LINES
All fuel, oil, and water lines, including gauge and vent lines, that pass into or through the driver/passenger compartment, shall be of steel tube or metal braided hoses or protected by a wall–like bulkhead container (Cool suit lines are exempt). The driver shall not be exposed to header tanks. Heat shielding between fuel/oil lines and fuel/oil filters and exhaust components is strongly recommended.

Notice the "...or protected by a wall-like bulkhead container". My emphasis.

Lines can be made of Silly Putty if contained. The goal there is to isolate line failures from spraying hot and/or flammable fluids through the cockpit.

I'd suggest ni-cu would be acceptable in spirit, but would not meet the letter of the regs without a conduit. Maybe a letter to request adjustment for other types of metal lines? - GA
 
It says "wall-like bulkhead container"... it doesn't mention the type of wall or container. I would say you could fashion a cover out of any thin wall tubing or PCV or etc and screw/rivet that to the body and it would meet the letter of the rule. the metal tubing itself meets the other regs..
shopping
 
The "wall-like" comment assumes the lines are somewhere in the back of the car, like around the fuel tank or cell. The "wall" isolates that area from the cockpit.

The SCCA regs also ASSume the lines going forward would be either steel or stainless-braided.

I agree that Matt's suggestion meets the intent of the regs, which is to isolate a line failure splashing pressurized and/or flammable liquids from the driver. I have, in fact, approved annual on cars that made a boxed conduit along the passenger rocker panel, firewall to firewall.

I'd personally recommend going with stainless-braided (lower risk of chafing or fatigue failure) and enclosing it with something like what Matt suggests.

I'm curious why Champ requires containment even with stainless-braided? - GA
 
Or run steel hard lines.
Easily done with steel brake lines from the auto part store, and AN tube nuts with the right bulkhead fittings and a decent tube bender.
 
Greg Amy":13dg6e4n said:
I'm curious why Champ requires containment even with stainless-braided? - GA
Click to expand...

Quik assumption is that those hoses chafe on the car and often over sharp edges. they eventually wear thru and fail and leak when people don't maintain their cars. then you have hot flaming death inside the cockpit.
the rules protect the stupid from themselves, but make life hard for the smart.
 
I understand the rule, 9.3.27 Fuel, Oil and Water Lines. Then I ask myself why is braided steel line approved? It's my understanding a steel braided line is basically two part, a non metal flexible tube with steel braided cover. It's burst proof, but when the non flexible inner tube leaks the liquid within the tube will leak through the braiding. Watch the video. What am I missing? On my race cars the fuel pressure gauge (bourdon tube/very thin and gas lines) stay outside the cockpit and fuel lines are outside the cockpit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd3TfFvhk68
 
chois":21zwxagr said:
Or run steel hard lines.
Easily done with steel brake lines from the auto part store, and AN tube nuts with the right bulkhead fittings and a decent tube bender.
Click to expand...

Thanks all for the responses.
I am suggesting to run steel lines, but another quirk with Champ is that we can't use bulkhead fittings. That's what started the issue. The team showed up at race tech in KY and the inspector said that they could not use bulkhead fittings. Any connections need to be made outside of the driver compartment. Bulkhead fittings are safer than running lines thru a hole, but they would not waive this, even though they approved it last year. Ugh.
 
Paint the copper line. Cover with the above style cover. Having a guard of something between spraying fuel and driver is a good thing.
Champcars get lots of miles on them. Unlike SCCA cars . The rules have gotten a little sticky for sure. Their cage rules are well beyond SCCA.
 
TR3Racer":1kq5h1mv said:
chois":1kq5h1mv said:
Or run steel hard lines.
Easily done with steel brake lines from the auto part store, and AN tube nuts with the right bulkhead fittings and a decent tube bender.
Click to expand...

Thanks all for the responses.
I am suggesting to run steel lines, but another quirk with Champ is that we can't use bulkhead fittings. That's what started the issue. The team showed up at race tech in KY and the inspector said that they could not use bulkhead fittings. Any connections need to be made outside of the driver compartment. Bulkhead fittings are safer than running lines thru a hole, but they would not waive this, even though :ask:
they approved it last year. Ugh.
Click to expand...

There are grommets with larger outer diameter and smaller inner diameter that I have used for things like this in the past. McMaster Carr has some nice high temp ones.
 
I bought a $10.00 length of electrical conduit from Lowe's. Used my trailer tire as a bender. Works like a charm.


Russ
 
David Dewhurst":qg223dbo said:
Hmm, no one cares to talk about steel braided lines being legal per rule 9.3.27.
Click to expand...
David, I didn't select your link, but I suggest re-reading the first post; he's trying to navigate competing regs:

A friend that races a Mustang in Champcar and SCCA, which I also drive in enduros, is trying to navigate between the 2 organizations...
Click to expand...
 
Greg please open the link I posted and suggest how steel braided braided line can be SCCA legal per the SCCA rule someone posted. When the tube inside the steel braid leaks I wouldn't want steel braided tube in my car. Not here to argue and at the same time I'd hate for anyone to have a fire in their cockpit.
 
David Dewhurst":nuwuuzom said:
Greg please open the link I posted and suggest how steel braided braided line can be SCCA legal per the SCCA rule someone posted. When the tube inside the steel braid leaks I wouldn't want steel braided tube in my car. Not here to argue and at the same time I'd hate for anyone to have a fire in their cockpit.
Click to expand...

Not to say "it'll never happen to me", but the only time I've had a steel braided line leak or rupture was of my own doing. I damaged a brake line when I failed to ground my welder properly and did a little welding on a strut mount to lock in an adjustment. The welder used the brake line for the ground path and melted the teflon tube inside the line causing it to make a big, obvious mess. fortunately I had spares and was able to quickly repair it.
Otherwise, ~20yrs of playing with cars and I have yet to have a braided steel line leak on me. ...Now I need to go find something made of wood to knock on.....
 
David Dewhurst":bef5q953 said:
Greg please open the link I posted and suggest how steel braided braided line can be SCCA legal per the SCCA rule someone posted.
Click to expand...
Um...wut? Because it specifically allows it in the reg?

Or is this a Dewhurst trick question...? ;)
 
Greg Amy":zywe3c3i said:
David Dewhurst":zywe3c3i said:
Greg please open the link I posted and suggest how steel braided braided line can be SCCA legal per the SCCA rule someone posted.
Click to expand...
Um...wut? Because it specifically allows it in the reg?

Or is this a Dewhurst trick question...? ;)
Click to expand...

So I was thinking the same, but - the current April 2023 update GCR has the term "fuel line" used two times in the PCS. Once for Drivetrain Level 1 and once for Drivetrain Level 2 with the same language:

E.1.c. & E.2.c
"Fuel pumps, lines, filters, and pressure regulators are unrestricted, provided no component serves
any fuel cooling purpose. Fuel lines can pass through the driver/passenger compartment. If a
mechanical pump is removed, a blanking plate can be used to cover the stock opening."

As it is written I can run paper mache fuel lines through the driver/passenger compartment.
I think I am remembering the IT rule that specifically calls out braided stainless fuel lines.

EDIT - never mind... Greg has it right Fuel, Water, etc Lines....
 
Chris, just to ensure we're on the same mindset...and I know you know this...

The order of authority is GCR, then Category specs, then class specs, then individual line specs. Anything subsequent overrides anything precedent.

In our example, GCR 9.x states that any fuel lines that run through the cockpit must be steel-braided or metal or protected by a bulkhead.

The PCS allows fuel lines (as defined by Appendix F) through the cockpit, but without specific design requirements so it does not override the GCR requirement.

I don't recall the exact IT reference, but it may have been removed as being redundant to GCR 9.x
 
Ok Amy, included is the rule copied from your post.

The specific reg.

9.3.27. FUEL, OIL, AND WATER LINES
All fuel, oil, and water lines, including gauge and vent lines, that pass into or through the driver/passenger compartment, shall be of steel tube or metal braided hoses or protected by a wall–like bulkhead container (Cool suit lines are exempt). The driver shall not be exposed to header tanks. Heat shielding between fuel/oil lines and fuel/oil filters and exhaust components is strongly recommended.

My non trick question to you Amy and all who have posted, is braided steel line a SAFE fuel line to have in the cockpit. I don't give a rats a$$ if the rule has been a rule since day one of the SCCA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd3TfFvhk68
 
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