Brake Rules in Prod

B

Brett W

Well-known member
I was reading through the GCR last night and came across this section under the Trans AM II rules in Appendix L

4.8.2: COST CONTROL
4.8.2.1: The following items have cost caps. Teams must submit a “COST
CONTROL INSPECTION” form prior to the team’s first race of the season (form
available from the Trans Am Technical Manager). Information the team must
provide will include the Make; Model; Part #; Supplier contact information; and
the commercially available cost.
Maximum Cost
Shock Absorbers $800 each
Brake Calipers $500 each
Brake Pads $200 /axle
Wheels $500 each
Click to expand...

Something like this could solve the brake problems and possibly get more cars moving back and forth within STU, GT and Prod. I don't think the wheels are a necessary option since wheels are harder to come by for all the different makes in these other classes and the shock option really isn't necessary as well.
However just looking at the brake caliper costs and pad costs would stop the major concern about a guy having to spend 10K to upgrade brakes to be competitive. So lets look at a reasonably priced brake option for Prod:

Wilwood Aero 4 calipers: $500
http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/Caliper ... name=Aero4

Brake pads for those calipers:
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakeP ... =15A-9977K

So maybe the pad costs could go up to $300, but I suspect $200 would work for most calipers.
Rotors, hats, hardware, pedals, lines and master cylinders are all ready free.
 
Those particular Wilwood calipers are only for 12.9" to 15" rotors. WAY bigger than anything legal for Prod, and STU is capped at ~13" as well.

Wilwood's Forged Superlite caliper are under $200 each and pads are $100-200/set depending on compound.
 
I grabbed a worse case example, I realize the other Wilwood calipers are cheaper. You can get a pretty decent caliper for $500 per caliper.

Rear calipers and mounting brackets are unrestricted but
must be made of a ferrous or aluminum material.
Click to expand...

So we allow pretty much any rear caliper now as long as it fits the rotor, why not free up the fronts?
 
Or looking at it from the other direction why free up the fronts? What problem is this solving?

If the answer is race car, it seems GT is already there.
If the answer is car specific, lets discuss that car's issue.
 
chois":1v64cf7m said:
Or looking at it from the other direction why free up the fronts? What problem is this solving?

If the answer is race car, it seems GT is already there.
If the answer is car specific, lets discuss that car's issue.
Click to expand...

Brett W":1v64cf7m said:
Something like this could solve the brake problems and possibly get more cars moving back and forth within STU, GT and Prod.
Click to expand...

My STU car could lose the splitter, wing, and brakes, and be 100% legal for EP.. It would be pretty much at proper weight too. the splitter is attached to the bumper, which comes off with 4 bolts. I could replace it with an EP-legal bumper in about 5 min, then remove the rear wing. voila. double entry when my RX7 is broken.
 
So will our categories be stronger if they are differentiated with a clear identity, or if they are more similar, with an emphasis on racing the same car more often? I don't know that making classes so similar that the same car competes (not participates) in multiple places is the strongest strategy, and I think the fact that it does occur in some cases is not evidence that it will benefit the club if taken as a strategy.

I guess if I were running an STx car, and wanted to also run in Prod I would be looking at how to make the stock braking system work well in the short term. In the long term I would hope changes intended to make classes more similar would be based on an intentional strategy rather than a few cases of "I would like to race my car there too".
 
My perspective isn't specifically about allowing an STU car to double-dip in EP..
EP is the fastest class I know of that still requires stock brakes. STU is very close to the same lap times on DOTs and has similar weights, so my theory is that brakes should be allowed for Prod cars "because race car".. Whether that impacts Prod's relation to GT3 or STU is a separate matter...

EP gets slicks, composite body panels, re-engineered suspensions, modified engines w/ alternate transmissions, all with STOCK brakes. Some Prod cars have quite strong brakes (RX8 for example), while others are quite lacking and having brakes at the end of a 40 min race becomes a car-management issue. I'd much rather have brakes at the end of a race than HOPE I can make that last-lap pass without winding up in the guardrail.

MY OPINION would be to open the brakes to whatever fits under the allowed wheel (and no additional suspension mods to add clearance) for your spec line. Given many/most of us are using 15" wheels and some have McStruts, that doesn't give a ton of room to mount huge rotors and calipers.

I also respect the opinion that "Prod means Prod" and you stick with production/stock brakes... we're all allowed our opinions and some smell worse than others. :D
 
I didn't mean to suggest that other opinions are not welcome, just that with the potential for unintended consequences, looking at the issue more broadly and strategically makes a lot of sense. I get that some cars will have brake issues, and see that some have allowances. The question would be whether production brakes are a core element of production category, and should it be. Then what are the implications of cars that don't "need" new brakes today,but have the opportunity to run them as a result of such a change.

I guess my position is to take a more skeptical view of changes, to make sure we really understand both the reasons for and implications of them if they do in fact make sense.

Has anyone asked the PAC about this?
 
Brett W":2bb1tsso said:
Something like this could solve the brake problems and possibly get more cars moving back and forth within STU, GT and Prod.
Click to expand...

Brett, what is "the brake problems" I'm not sure what problem you're referring to.
 
You could pretty much make all cars equal in terms of brakes if you set a given size for a weight range. Vented rotors for all cars. Car spec weight is between 2400-2600# you get up to X diameter. Stock brakes already this big, great. If not you get a bigger option. Limit number of pistons to 4 on front and 2 on rear. Should cover every car listed. Just a discussion idea.
 
My biggest complaint with Prod has always been the stock brake requirement (and now the fuel injection rules). We are building race cars with, in some cases double the factory HP, tires that can generate 1.5+gs in cornering capabilities, etc and we have to keep the stock front calipers and rotors sizes. (But we can convert the rear brakes to a disk setup and use any aftermarket race caliper, rotor, hat, etc).

We are building race cars why must we leave one of the most critical components as they came from the manufacture, yet we allow competitors to throw away the rest of the brake system and build a one off custom setup. We have allowed twin masters, alternative pedals, alternative lines, alternative stock sized rotors, light weight aluminum hats, custom rear calipers (only if you are converting to disk brakes), etc, but we have kinda tossed the philosophy that stock brakes were the corner stone of production racing.

Lets look at some of the modern cars that are now moving into Production, the S2000 and RX8 both come with 12+in rotors and massive calipers, the RX7 came with light weight aluminum four piston calipers from the factory, The RSX and TSX come with 11.8in rotors, etc. We have allowed some cars to run up to 18x8 in wheels, yet the rest of us are stuck on 15x7s (which is swell as wheels and tires are cheap).

I can buy/build a front brake setup that is cost effective and better than a stock setup for very little money. It doesn't take stupid money to build a good four piston caliper setup. 11x1.25 (or .810) rotors can be had for less than $50 each (half that if you score). These are simple stock car parts. You have already bought the custom hats to save weight. You have already converted the car to rear disks with lightweight calipers, why saddle the cars with questionable front brakes? Does it really make for great racing when your competitor's brakes give it up halfway through a session?

Is it really a win to beat a guy by equipment failure?

We are mostly limited by wheel size anyways, so you are pretty much limited to a 12in rotor for a 15in wheel. I am sure we could come up with a simple rule package that benefits everyone, attracts people to the class and allows everyone to compete on a level playing field. The TA2 cost rules seem to offer a reasonable architecture for other situations as well.

GT3 is dead, GTL is doing pretty well, GT2 is dead (for traditional GT cars), lets face it, Prod is the new GT class for those of us with no interest in playing with tube chassis silhouettes.
 
Brett you are on the correct track, but please realize two things :
Volkswagen is no longer playing in the SCCA sand box, sponsor wise.
You are competing with a German based race car.
All the cars you note above are not.
Suffice it to say many VW based racers have withdrawn from the SCCA program and gone elsewhere because of the situation you are in.
We asked for years to allow a equitable brake adjustment to no avail.
Try running a F Prod VW Scirocco with 170 + HP with a mandated 9.4 " SOLID rotor and stock caliper / brake pad size.
On a FWD car where the front wheels do most all of the work.
You, at least, have vented rotors , but of the same size.
Remember the phase :
"We [ the SCCA and the CRB ] guarantee no car to be competitive"
On the other hand ....
 
I am not building a VW based car, I am building a Honda. I also don't expect the rules to allow the competitiveness of any one make or model (unless of course you are Mazda or Toyota and have some influence on the rules that affect your products). Are we building race cars or sorta race cars? Kinda like the alternative rod rule. It makes sense to allow a competitor to build a proper race engine without worrying about stock components that will inevitably fail. This isn't 1980 again. You don't have to have cubic dollars to have access to nice race car specific parts.

Look at how the racing world has changed in the last 20 years. Fuel injection was limited to top level teams and something most club racers could only dream of. Today you can assemble a very nice system for less than it cost you to build your engine. Lightweight strong connecting rods were something that typically had to be custom made or offered by the manufacture unless you raced a common V8. Today you can pick up a set of rods for just about any engine for under $1000 that are lighter than the stock rods, stronger than the stock rods and don't require $500 worth of prep work and 6 months of hunting to find usable candidates. In the past multi piston calipers were limited to a few production cars (Porsche, RX7s,etc). Today you can go buy a Mustang off the dealer lot with 6 piston Brembos. There is no reason anyone should be trying to run a competitive race car with 9.4in solid disks and some crappy sliding calipers unless they choose to do so. It certainly shouldn't be mandated by the rules. This isn't the 1970s. We aren't sliding around on some super hard tires and suspension with limited capabilities. For all intensive purposes even the LBCs are top level race cars these days. :lol:
 
OK thanks for the clarification.

Remember not everyone runs a 15" wheel. Many of the newer cars are allowed 18s (see my signature picture.)

I would like to see your proposal for a rule change. I have tried a couple times and it's very difficult to write a rule that doesn't favor certain cars.

Also, I think the CRB is in wait and see mode on the recent Alt Rod rule and may not be willing to take on something so massive at this point. Don't want to speak for them, that's just my speculation.
 
I'm resistant to most "rules creep" and was against alternate rods 'til very recently.

But I've got to admit that opening up brakes is an idea whose time has come.

In the old days proper race brakes were very expensive. In Prod you had to moan and politic and write letters and eventually you might get some bigger brakes from the same (auto) manufacturer, it was fairly arbitrary. It's still done that way, the HP Corolla recently got bigger brakes from another old Toyota.

My HP VW has the same little bitty 9.4" solid rotors as Bob's FP car - less power but almost 200 lbs heavier. Running right on the edge of pad fade and fluid boiling is no fun. Now that good brakes are pretty cheap why don't we go that way?

Yes, there will be some unintended consequences. But once brakes are "good enough" ie thermally adequate, the payback of going to "great" isn't nearly as big. Are any of the front running prod cars really saddled with thermally inadequate brakes like the solid rotor VWs?

Limiting size vs weight (taking fwd vs rwd into account IMO), # pistons, cost are all possible good ideas and can limit unintended consequences.

Failing approval of "race brakes" - I just want Rabbit GTI vented rotors, maybe I should stock up on postage stamps...???

Al Seim
HP VW Scirocco 1.6
 
Allowing brakes on some cars and not others may be a way of limiting some cars that may me too competitive with better brakes. Just like the cars that are limited to a 13x6 wheel as a competition adjustment. The HP Honda that I race has a 9.1" vented brake and it is easy to overheat them at some tracks. I would like to have better brakes at some of the tighter tracks but fitting a bigger brake in my 13" wheels would not be easy. If I were able to get better brakes and make the car faster, how much more of a lead trophy would I get then?
I think brakes need to be done on an car by car basis for a competition adjustment item. If your car is not competitive with stock brakes and would more competitive be with alternate brakes, then it should be allowed and listed on the cars line. It would take you some stamps to get brakes on the VWs but may be better than opening brakes up on all cars.

Will Perry
 
Should stay out of this, except here is a brake rotor question. Have any of you ever letter requested a vented rotor for the solid rotors that are spec today. VENTED ROTOR ONLY. Must admit, I don't know if they exist. The F prod Miata does very well with OEM brakes/vented 9.25 inch front rotors.
 
HPCRX36":vyf74nra said:
The HP Honda that I race has a 9.1" vented brake and it is easy to overheat them at some tracks. I would like to have better brakes at some of the tighter tracks but fitting a bigger brake in my 13" wheels would not be easy.
Will Perry
Click to expand...

This kinda makes my point. You have "stock" brakes on a HP car. We aren't even talking T4 levels of HP and yet you can use up the stock brakes. Are we building race cars or band-aiding street cars to make them live at the track? I can think of no other race organization that doesn't allow upgrading brakes on cars prepared to the Prod Levels. If you want to ensure parity, use weight, use restrictors, use camshaft lift, etc. Not allowing proper race brakes is an asinine way to limit competitive potential.

I get that back in the day race brakes were out of the reach of the normal guys. Now days that isn't the case. Modern cars have lots of HP potential, sticky tires, and in some cases a lot of weight need real brakes. You have cars that have to weigh in excess of 2500lbs and they have to run the stock brakes? A 280Z car has a min weight of 2688lbs (alternate trans,etc) and we "graciously" allow the run a 9.9in vented rotor. How nice of the rules committee. Did you accomplish anything by beating that competitor knowing that he could run half the laps in one session at full tilt and the rest he had to back off and nurse the brakes?

There are some bad ass cars running in Prod and they have the capability to be just as advanced as some of the GT1/T1/STO type cars. Why should the class look at brakes as the great equalizer? That is a little backwards.

I notice someone made a point about the wheels. Why not allow the alternative wheels at a heavier weight penalty or simply create a box rule? Lets say 8in is the width limit. No height limit (since we have allowed 18s already). This would allow you to run any size wheel and tire package. Obviously for the HP and probably the FP guys there is no advantage to running bigger than a 15 or even maybe a 13 (depending on gearing, ride height, etc) but let the competitor decide what works best for their setup. One step at a time however.
 
I'm also in favor of a box rule- both for Prod and GT classes. (Brakes and wheels that fit those brakes go hand-in-hand.) ST* already has a similar rule with a max wheel size and a max tire width, and any 4piston or less caliper and 13" or less rotor.

These are the guys you're racing next to while they're on DOT tires. slicks carry even more of a brake requirement due to the higher friction levels/ greater stopping potential of the slicks vs. DOTs.

And if you don't think you can fit some decent brakes under 15" wheels, go take a look at what NASCAR is using right now and what GT3 and GTL cars are running... And they all fit that stuff in 15" wheels. Granted, most of those GT3/GTL cars have altered suspensions over the OEM style required for Prod, but you still get the point. You CAN fit some good brakes under a 15" wheel.

That said, what's left between a GT3 tub car and an EP car at that point? The lines get more blurry every day. I will admit that. However, the point has also been made that Prod cars are pretty freakin heavily modified- these are no longer grocery-getters and econoboxes. They're race cars. They should have brakes befitting a race car.

....stepping off the soap box.
 
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