Brake Pads

A

Al Seim

Well-known member
What brake pad materials do you guys like these days?

Specifically, I need to upgrade to something "better" (ie works at higher temps) than good old Hawk Blue?

My HP Scirocco will only go for about 10 hard laps at Summit Point before starting to pick up pad fade. I've got good ducts and cans, car is on weight, just need a higher temp material I think. I can baby the brakes and run all day, but should not have to IMO.

If it matters, rotors are unvented, basically just "too small" for the load on them. Also, I don't want anything with lower friction than the Blues, brake pedal force is already fairly high.

FWIW I'm a "budget racer" so price and life (and rotor life) are all factors, though if I gotta pay I guess I gotta pay, I'm tired of fade..

Thanks!

Al Seim
HP VW Scirocco 1.6
 
As a guy that used Hawk Blue for years, I've been really happy with Carbotech's. I'm not sure what pad they would recommend, but if you give them a call, Danny can probably help you. The Carbotech's are much more rotor friendly than the Hawk's in my opinion.
 
Al........ Rob has been using Carbotech for years and we just dont have any problems and we are stopping a 3400 pound car (thanks scca). Talk to Danny at 877.899.5024

When you switch over you may have to put on new rotors as Hawsk leaves a residue on the rotors.
 
I could never make Carbotechs work at brake killer tracks like Blackhawk.

Nobody makes good pads in my fitment size.

That said, Porterfield is great to work with in that they custom make any fitment in any compound that is available by jet-cutting a larger pad down to size.

I've had very good luck with the Raybestos ST43 pad.
It's not the friendliest pad as far as rotors is concerned (better than Hawk Blues) but for me that isn't an issue since rotors are dirt cheap and I usually end up tossing them after a few race weekends due to heat cracks, so rotor wear is not an issue.
I know Albin used to run them but don't know if he still does. Only downside is the pads are not cheap... around $250 a set.
The ST41 compound is more rotor friendly but did not hold up at Blackhawk or RA.
Edit - I assume from your signature that you are running solid rotors? If so you probably would not have the rotor cracking issue I have with my vented rotors.

The Hawk DTC70 compound isn't bad. Very rotor friendly but did not feel as good halfway thru a race at Blackhawk. They still worked, just didn't feel as good and I drove them at a pace where they didn't drop off. They were much cheaper than the Raybestos. Seemed to holdup better than the Carbotechs.

Edit Again: Just to clarify...my issue with Carbotechs was not fade related. It was a heat management issue for my particular car. My vintage of Honda has really crappy single piston calipers. When the pads heat soaked after a few laps at Blackhawk, the backing plate would start to bend and the pad would wrap itself around the piston. This led to a thermal runaway with more localized 'spot' heating which would cause the pad to bend more, which caused more heating, etc, etc.
I have very little room for larger hoses and ducting. If I try to fit larger hose for more air flow, it just gets smashed up by the tire and axle.
If you can get the heat issue solved and or if you have double piston calipers, you might not have the same issue. The few times I used Carbotechs at 'easy' brake tracks like Mid-Ohio, or IRP, I loved them.
 
Bobby Lentz":2kmva1wp said:
I run PFC 01. Never had any fade
Click to expand...
+1

Call Darrick at PFC. He's the man. Ping me if you need his number.

Blues are pretty tolerant of heat. You need better ducts. Not sure what you're allowed in prod, but I'd max it out. But run it by Darrick, he's BTDT.

-Kyle
 
I will echo what Greg Gauper says... Raybestos ST43 are the top of the food chain as far as heat resistance is concerned, but will nibble the rotors. Hawk DTC-70's are almost as good, but don't chew-up the rotors.
 
I agree on the Raybestos pads. I run ST41 on the front and they work very well without being harsh on the rotors. I usually run the pads for a full season before replacing them. I need a very aggressive compound because I still run the small front rotor. The Raybestos pads saved me the trouble of having to upgrade to the larger rotor. I did run PFC pads for a few years with good results. I noticed a major improvement when I switched to Raybestos. I don't think the PFC pads would have held up when I got moved to HP with an extra 220 lbs.
 
Al, we switched our 2400 lb ITA Nissan Sentra to Carbotech XP10 and were very happy with them. The car would bend Porterfield pads similar to what Greg described. I like the feel of the Carbotech over the Hawk Blues. That said, Carolyn's GTI with the vented rotors has not had any fade issue with Hawks with her or I driving. It's a shame that allowing vented VW rotors like we have for the Scirocco would make them too fast.
 
I like a lot of initial bite and have had good success with the Hawk DTC-60 on the Miata. Better release than the Blue which might help with keeping them under you during a race. I've heard the Blues are very draggy in comparison.
 
Unfortunately, the older cars do not always get the choice of compounds in the Hawk product line, or Performance Friction.
A quick check of a Hawk pricesheet shows that for Al's car which uses the HB189 pad shape, the following compounds are offered:
9012 Blue
HT10
DTC30
None of these are offered in the solid rotor thickness (.750) anymore and are only available in the vented rotor thickness (.595).

Performance Friction stopped making the pad shape for the A1 and A2 cars seven years ago. Yes they will make a special order run of them if you are willing to buy 12 axle sets (at an $80.00 per axle up charge). :-[...

Yes, I agree that allowing the A1 Scirocco vented front brake rotors will make it too fast. :boohoo:

I am remembering now why I sold my trusty A1 Scirocco last fall.

cheers
dave parker
 
Cram a LOT more air at each front rotor. On my old H car I ran two 3" hoses on EACH rotor and would have run more if I could have fit them. Also ran rear brake hoses but later took them off. The key is AIR, and lots of it. There never is enough.

Also, I ran custom made brake fans on front/back, black calipers, new fluid every race, disc brake insulators on the front pistons, never needed stainless or Titanium pistons although that was next, never needed ventilated pistons (like Indy cars, old F1 cars) although that was next, next. Never even needed "good" brake fluid (Castrol LMA).

These measures are FAR more important than the particular friction material you choose although some are clearly better than others. Do ALL of these things and you can run virtually any racing pad with no fade issues.
 
I've run Hawk HT10 for quite a while and have been happy with them, but have recently switched to DTC-60 on recommendation from a friend. honestly I can't tell a difference between the two on my car, but my car is quite easy on brakes. DOT-Rs, 2600lbs, 150whp, and 12" 2-piece rotors. I'm in a whole different ballpark than an overweight car with solid rotors and stock calipers.

Anyway, I've had real good luck with the HT-10 and DTC-60 so far if you can use either of them.

As for getting stuff that's NLA, you can always give porterfield a call. For a "small charge", I've heard they will cut the pad shape you need from something a bit bigger. It's something to consider.
 
I find the Spridget very under braked in size. I have Porterfield cut pads to my template out of the more modern PFC compounds. Very good bite even under low temps, very good rotor wear although I don't really care as rotors are not expensive, very level Cf curve, very expensive!!!! You get what you pay for.What's 1/4-1/2 second a lap worth?
 
We have used DTC70, bought them in a GM shape and cut them to fit 189 shape VW calipers.
The DTC70 works well, I especially like the strong bite/friction when using a welded diff.
The Blues work but go away over a race at Blackhawk.
The HT10 don't seem much different, but things seem to get hotter with them.

I may give Cobalt a try just to learn something.
 
Nobody ever believes me about the air thing.........I guess it's too much work compared to just changing pads.
 
Jay and others:

Do you use a device to bring part of the ducted airflow to the front side of the rotor or do you get the end of the duct as close to the inside of the rotor as you can?

Thanks,

John
 
Not saying we(I) don't believe you.. I wholeheartedly agree that air will help. But it's PART of the equation, not all of it. Maybe just a pad change will the problem, or maybe just adding air will solve the problem, but choosing a better pad and adding air would go farther to reducing consumables cost and adding reliability.
 
Jay,
I do all of the things on your list including Ti hats on the pistons and SRF. That helps keep them working, but doesn't do anything about how they work. The pad material determines how they work. I don't like hugh pedal pressures and prefer a high bite/high coef. compound as I modulate better that way. Bottom line, if you want your brakes to be as good as they can be, all parts for the brake equation have to be optimized including getting the right feel
H
Jay Lutz":3ia8n2q6 said:
Nobody ever believes me about the air thing.........I guess it's too much work compared to just changing pads.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top