Adjustment for DOT tires - 2015 end of year decision?

M

markb

Well-known member
Any decision(s) made?

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CLUB RACING BOARD MINUTES | June 2, 2015

Member Advisory
Prd
1. #15923 (Mike Ogren) Adjustment for DOT Tires Please
The CRB appreciates all the comments on this issue. The question of allowing a weight reduction for cars that run DOT tires
together with a number of other issues concerning wheel/tire sizes in Production will continue to be reviewed this year with
decisions anticipated by the end of the year. All additional letters are welcome.

The CRB thanks the following authors for their input:
16410, Blake Meredith; 16419, Philip Royle; 16478, Sam Henry; 16479, Eric Prill; 16497, Scott Lunder; 16548 and 16825,
Eric Heinrich; 16550, Curtis Wood; 16577, Aaron Johnson; 16578, David Ellenwood; 16588, Bill Lankin; 16591, Bill Perry;
16596, Mark Buskuhl; 16597, Mike W. Ogren; 16601, Ralf Lindow; 16602, William Trainer; 16606, Kyle Disque; 16644, Brian
Linn; 16659, Les Chaney; 16818, Jerry Oleson; 16820, Jason Stine; 16821, James Whitten; 16844, Greg Amy; 16852, Darryl
Pritchett; 16907, Chip O’Toole; 16953, Michael Heintzman.
 
It would be nice to have some correction. The DOT last much longer and cost a little less.
5% may be enough to get the ball rolling. Anything to reduce the tire bill would be an improvement .

Make all of the LP cars run DOT.. :)

I ran our car on DOT all year and raced Runoffs on slicks. WE did a BTB run @ Daytona and I figure my care needs 100# to be viable on DOT .
Will Perry and Matt Brannon often run DOT @ Spec weight.
 
No, no, no, no, no...

The tin tops that can make the DOTs work are fast enough in a straight line. You don't need a weight break because you choose to use a cheaper tire that doesn't corner as well. If you want to cut costs and buy the cheaper tires, go right ahead. But don't whine about needing a weight break so you can continue to dominate the class.

And, with all due respect Mike, FORCING all LPs to run DOTs is stupid and is only going to push more people away from the club. There's more LPs out there than just the tin tops.
 
As a Spridget driver I have to make up time in the corners that I lose on the straights. Making me go to DOTs would be a huge penalty. And no amount of weights savings will overcome that penalty.

Let's no paint all LP cars with one brush. Jason's right......you wanna save money by going to DOTs, go for it.

Dayle
 
How long would it take for special one session tires to be made available?
Of couse they will cost more than the slicks do now but someone will buy them.
if you wish to use the DOT's great, but we should not reward folks for choosing to use them.
why not decide to use 5" wheels for a break? Or stock cams and no porting
it is a false economy to say they will save money.
Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
 
bfloyd":2ow4gt0b said:
How long would it take for special one session tires to be made available?
Of couse they will cost more than the slicks do now but someone will buy them.
if you wish to use the DOT's great, but we should not reward folks for choosing to use them.
why not decide to use 5" wheels for a break? Or stock cams and no porting
it is a false economy to say they will save money.
Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...

Alot of scca already runs DOT tires and there really aren't any "special" tires. Not anymore than there are special slicks. Granted there are Hoosier A compound tires but I haven't seen them being that much faster and can wear out way faster. Yes, if someone ran A compounds all the time their tire bill would be similar or worse than slicks but they also wouldn't be fast over a whole race either.

Just my $.02
 
Like I said. Brannon and maybe Perry have run both tires and often race on the DOT. I did not see any one gathering data at any races we were at last year.

I ran the same set of DOT for the 3 weekends.
I expect the situation to simply fade way, just like Prod will .


I am sure that the CRB has given up on any Prod rule changes towards modernization. And any carrots to promote modernization. Most of the class wants to live in the 60s and I respect that. AS the car counts dwindle further , the class Rule will take care of itself.
22, 23 cars for the entire group @ Sebring including GTL . Not moving the rules a little to reduce cost , ease of entry , etc, is a poor business model.
I expect the modern cars to fade into the modern classes, STU,STL etc and the real Prod cars to finish the trek towards Vintage.
BTW have any idea what the tire rule is in Vintage?
 
I am a 26 year member and one of the constants has been how Prod is going to
disappear and how the "modern" cars are killing it. I cannot define a
modern car being 20 plus years old. If the DOT's represent a good value
and are fast enough run them without any subsidies.
Choices are good and the market will find its own level based on
speed and price. Of course ST is Soooooo much cheaper to run.
Again just this guys personal opinion (not affiliated with anyone elses
opinion I prefer to be right or wrong all by myself. )
 
Mike,

I am all about finding some solution to make DOT tires, already legal, a competitive option, but there are a lot, lot more Prod cars carrying less than 100lbs ballast than there are those with 100lbs to unbolt. A lot more effort has been expended just lightening my FP car than has been expended on your entire build and my car still would require a 40 pound driver to make weight. This is reality for many in Production.
 
I am sure that the CRB has given up on any Prod rule changes towards modernization. And any carrots to promote modernization.
Click to expand...

I don't see how slicks are antiquated. There are brand new designs of slicks on the market. You're saying a cheaper tire that has less grip is somehow more modern?

There is already a problem, at least in HP, that Jason brought up above. The tin tops are too slow in the corners and too fast on the straights. They don't race well with roadsters. Like it or not, roadsters are still viable and budget-friendly and people still race them (though the Runoffs at RA and Daytona did not help keep participation high). Most of the FWD HP cars were given 7 inch wheels years ago to help reduce the handling disparity. This proposed change would make the problem worse. Side note: every Level 2 Roadster could be made faster if HP is ever deemed "too slow." Simply amp up the mods a bit.

A change to allow a 5% weight subsidy will actually drive costs up. If that were in place everyone that actually wants to go as fast as possible will need to test all the alternatives with the different weight break, different set up, and different tires. Testing costs money. Very few club racers get enough seat time to re-learn how their car handles. Finally, DOTs at 5% lighter would probably be faster at some tracks and slower at other tracks...so the guys that want to win will need two setups. Cha ching.
 
Tom hit the nail on the head. Ultimately there's no simple way to equate lap times between DOTs and slicks. Many people will be forced to test, and if you can't afford to do so, you can bet others will - and probably have two setups.

Don't forget, many Hoosier DOT tires are available in much wider sizes than the slicks. For the heavier cars, I'm relatively certain a 275 DOT will work better than a 245 slick.

All that said, you can already run the DOTs if you want to start testing now. Maybe SCCA will stealth-test the DOTs like they did with the American Racers :) Emperical Evidence FTW!

We are coming to a head with the wheels and tires in prod; unfortunately the issue remains unaddressed. Don't expect the resolution to be pain free.
 
My overismplified view of it is that Hoosier and GY are the only ones that produce slicks in our sizes. and GY tried to get out of the game, only to be sucked back in for a couple of sizes. that's GOT to be a money-loser for them.

"everyone else" uses larger slicks and/or DOTs. Prod and GTL are the only classes I know of out there stuck on tiny 6 and 7" wheels. eventually I envision the tire folks will get tired of making a handful of tire sizes specifically for a couple SCCA classes and spend their machine time on more profitable sizes. then SCCA will be forced to make a hard choice. We can either modernize or be left behind. But hey, that's just me thinking out loud. Worth what you paid for it. :mrgreen:
 
I said that i dont expect anything to happen .

Some are using DOT already and running well . They last much longer, are a little harder. etc. The Polar moment is a little higher. They will be a little slower most of the time. Most of the time .
I believe that over a 50 mile race , the total time will be very close to the radial slick.

I dont expect a weight break for them .

The modern classes have stopped the cantilever thing before it gets out of the bag with size limits, along with wheel limits.

. How many cars in the world use the canti 13 slicks? 400? Do the math.

I dont expect anything to happen.

The Hp class runs very close together as it is. I believe that the fastest cars are using all using the radial 215/ 13 slick.
The statement was very correct that the cars make speed in a huge variety of ways. Makes for great racing and a lot of fun. 60yrs of cars ,very close.
 
Protech Racing":2dc7h48o said:
The statement was very correct that the cars make speed in a huge variety of ways. Makes for great racing and a lot of fun. 60yrs of cars ,very close.
Click to expand...

Until you're the lower-powered car that can turn and you're held up by 2sec a lap by a car with gobs of power and a wiiiide rear bumper....
 
As to the question of tires allowed in Vintage, we finally got VDCA (they use SVRA tire rules, no DOT Hoosiers, only Street TD's)) to let us run our LP HP Midget with DOT's in their FP class (1275 was FP back in the day) at Road Atlanta last July. It was supposed to be on a trial basis to see if anyone complained. Unfortunately the waters failed to be tested when I disintegrated a piston 4 laps into the first session. Having never run a vintage race of any kind before, all I can report is that I was slightly the fastest in our group by a fraction, and, not having actually raced, I don't know what the reaction would have been if we had won. I did see in the recent VDCA newsletter that there have been complaints about non-treaded DOT tires, and they may be more strict again. Your main option is to run with HSR; they allow anything as long as you can afford the ridiculous entry fees.
 
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